UKC

As per the thread title... 

Warm, soft, easy to dry and removable inner boots that can be easily dried I no time. Solid, reassuring plastic outers which can be wiped dry.

BUT

Massively uncomfortable on the long walk out and unforgiving on the less technical ground.

Is there any any way plastic boots would make a comeback for Scottish winter?

I hope not!

Solid, reassuring plastic outers ??you best look up cracking Koflacls 

and Scottish winter they are a thing of the past to ☹️ 

https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/winter_climbing/koflach_plastic_boot_shat...

Are there any more recent developments in polymer technology that would prevent brittle failure?

In modern boots lots of the cost must be in the time spent stitching and glueing everything together, surely a brittle resistant plastic exists that can be assembled into a boot?

I previously used some plastic boots on loan, the total lack of flex was the real killer when heading back to the car, could a ski boot "walk" option be added yet remain lightweight?

Doesn't it depend on what we mean by plastic? There seem to be a lot of B3 boots with fully-synthetic polymer uppers, just not in the old style of a near-rigid outer boot with a separate inner.

I bought my first pair, Scarpa Grinta, little used but second hand. They were a good fit though, and I used them a lot over the next 7 or so winters and never got blisters or discomfort. Replaced them with Vegas when they started breaking up. But once I got LS Nepal Extremes in 2000 I never went back to them (except occasionally on -30 days) because they were so much better to climb in, and indeed LS Trango Extremes which I got in the mid 00s were better for climbing again.

Five routes for me already this year and only two in the Northern Corries.

I've probably cursed it by saying that although I know that one particularly keen NW activist is away for a month so that might help ensure some better conditions...

Years ago I worked at the Glasgow Climbing Centre and I found a pair of Koflach Viva Soft in the basement when we were clearing it out. I climbed everything in them for about 10 years. VI ice, VII mixed, and it was never the boots that were the limiting factor. Super comfy too. I only stopped using them because I reckoned they must have been 25 years old and I'd heard all the stories about cracking.

Edit: in the interest of balance, I also had a pair of Scarpa Omegas that were hideous things.

I don't really miss my Koflach Ultras (now departed after they started to break up) but remember them being an improvement for winter climbing over my previous leather boots (Galibier super guides) - stiffer, more waterproof, warmer, inners which could be easily dried or worn as hut/tent boots and possibly a little lighter than soaked leather boots. 

Routes done in Wales already too, plus a few in the Lakes! Earlier than the excellent December conditions last year as well. I've only done one route but that's because I could only go at the weekend and its a big day out. Local have been more productive. I've done a winter route in England or Wales (normally but not always an easier ridge) pre-Xmas I think every year since 2017. Conditions are fickle no doubt, but it's not complete gone yet!

Reports of its demise are greatly exaggerated.

No doubt things are changing but there will still be winter climbing for a while yet.

I never had Omegas but I remember many people liking them. I know one of our illustrious British Mountain Guides telling me that he reckons that they were the only thing that stopped him getting frostbite, when a younger him and his mate bit off considerably more than they could chew and spent a night hanging on a rope high on a large Alpine peak! What did you hate about them?

They hurt my shins and the top of my foot. I tried everything to adapt them but it didn't work.

My old Scarpa Vegas (black ones) have a pronounced rocker to the sole to accommodate a walking action. Works OK.

To all the 'thing of the past' people, modern boots are nowhere near as good for winter bothy trips but then Scottish winters are what they were.

I bet some light modern winter boots plus some light Innov8 or similar fell shoes for hut slippers wouldn't weight any more than an old pair of Koflachs or similar!

Plastic goes brittle with age, let's say the average boot that cracked was 10 years old, or younger but with serious usage. Do modern boots last better?

If you had a brand new pair of koflach soft of the Asolo equivalent (if they were still  made that is..) you're unlikely to find them crack until they've had a LOT of use! I've never seen cracking until they done a lot.

When I had Asolo AFS 101s my feet were toasty at times my partner was struggling with burning/frozen toes. They were heavy though. Good on steep stuff not so great on scrambling etc   (fine for snow plods)

I always thought Raichle boots were great, now sadly merged or bought out by mammut. 

I still have a scar low down on my right shin following a long Scottish day. I forgot to tape it up before putting on my Koflach Ultras. It hurt like hell for a long time and spoiled that trip - never forgot after that!  

This thread reminds me I still have a pair of Omega's lurking somewhere. If anyone wants them let me know otherwise they are going in the bin!

(Size 10, collect from Nottingham)

care to elaborate? i still have and use the Scarpa Omega's as my 1 and only winter/ice boot. Sure they are uncomfortable for the walk in/out, but that is largely because i have wide feet and they are a bit too narrow for me. that could be a problem in any hard or soft boot. I must have had them for about 12 years now, and apart from needing to replace the laces every few seasons, the only things to break on them have been lace loops, which can be replaced also. can you imagine any other boot still going strong after this length of time having survived being kicked into cairngorm/chamonix granite repeatedly! and in terms of climbing quality, nothing else comes close to that 100% rigidity of a plastic boot.

may i get another 12 years out of them!

https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/gear/will_plastic_b3_boots_ever_make_a_co...

aren't what they were, I mean!

The joy of a plastic outer, over multiple days, is they're imperviousness to moisture - they're dry (ish) in the morning.

I've a old pair of Asolo supersofts in the garage. Great boots. I will try the freezer test on them.

On the subject of shin damage in plastic boots, my first pair were Trezeta Zetas, anybody else remember them?

I bought them in the mid eighties as a teenager because they were cheaper than Koflachs and all I could afford. They weighed about twice as much as Koflachs and by comparison, made Koflachs feel like slippers.

They weren't so much plastic boots as plastic buckets though buckets might have been more comfortable,

The first time I used them on a long Alpine route they ripped my shins to shreds. When I tried to take my socks off the next day I discovered that they had bled into the socks and congealed and dried so my socks were stuck to the shins so removing them pulled the scabs off making them bleed again.

After that I took to shaving my lower shin and applying a large piece of elastoplast before I wore them. Still painful but reduced the chances of skin to sock attachment.

My mate's daughter was wearing his old Asolo 101s I think they were, a few winters ago for some fortunately local ice climbing when the whole front of the boot snapped and fell off. So a freezer test sounds a very good idea! I've recently thrown away my Scarpa plastic Telemark boots as they started breaking up. They would have been about 23 years old, Dave's Asolos maybe 33ish so they were both well used!

Darn it. I thought, as post koflach boots, they'd last forever

I had my 101s stored in the loft for over a decade. When I took them out of the box I could tear the plastic upper with ease. It was a sad day to see them go in the bin.

Yes of course, just look at ski boots, they were also prone to cracking in the old days, not any more.

A major cost of plastic boots is producing the moulds, very high sales of ski boots are required to repay the investment in moulds. Even then shells are only produced in full sizes, not half sizes, the difference made up by different liners

A lot of development has taken place in plastic ski touring boots, which can also be great for ice climbing but maybe not for mixed. I haven’t tried but I wouldn’t expect them to be as comfortable as leather boots for long walk ins/outs

Likewise, I did my entire 15 year winter climbing career in Omegas. Apart from being a bit clumsy on snow-free walk-ins, I thought they were brilliant. Climbing-wise I appreciated the support and rigidity and they're basically the same weight as Nepal Extremes. It was a treat to not even once have cold feet on a winter climb - I think the effect of that on overall comfort and morale is not trivial. In terms of overall toughness I found them bombproof, although I did likewise bend or snap a few lace loops on granite chimneys, but Scarpa replaced two pairs for free! I think the meme that all plastic boots shatter within a few years arises from previous eras. 

Plastic boots for walk-ins aren't always bad.  My Koflachs had a hinge and were the most comfortable walking boot I've ever had for rough rocky walking.  The padded inner boots meant loads of cushioning.

Multiple trips up and down NZ's Tasman Glacier (6-12 hour days on big boulders and hard ice).  I would be cruising pain free while my partners had aching soles of feet.

Also did all my Mt Blanc trips in plastics being warm and dry -- even after snow-holing the nights prior.

The problem with them is not comfort, but agility.  Which was a problem in Scottish and Alpine mixed stuff, and probably the only reason I had to swap to more modern leather/synthetic.

Yes, climbing is extremely fashion led. Once the integral gaiter market has been exhausted, expect to see your heros wear "next generation" plastic boots, with a price tag to suit.

It's not all fashion, if they were shite, people wouldn't buy them. My Scarpa Phantom Techs climb amazingly well, they are super light, comfortable and I've never once had wet feet. Durability remains to be seen.

All have their pros and cons, iirc the first lot of phantoms had soles soo poor they barely lasted a season.

I have used a wide variety of boots leather, plastic, combinations etc. All have performed well enough. It wouldn't surprise me if one of the cobblers were developing a new plastic boot right now for release in a couple of years as a ground breaking development.

I see yeti gaiters are making a comeback, does this say something about modern boots?

They never went away for me, the Phantoms and the Omegas are the only boots I've had in the last 20 years that I haven't put them on! 

Some people seem to be really against them and I don't really understand why. I had a pal who's winter climbing boots started to leak. There was nothing else wrong with them and they didn't want to shell out for new ones so I suggested yetis and they dismissed them out of hand.

Well I'm reporting back after my Asolo supersofts have spent 48 hours in the freezer. I've hit them multiple times with a hammer to no effect. No damage. I was able to tear the top of the tongue of the other (non frozen) boot a little with my hands but I'm not sure I couldn't have done that when new funnily enough I never tried!

My conclusion - there's years left in them yet! Maybe.

I "retired" my scarpa vegas two years ago for newer boots - not as warm, no difference in walk in/out so not convinced it was an upgrade

Have only used the boots for snowy walks so cant comment on whether they are better for climbing, maybe this year I will get out again, maybe

I never had cold feet in plac boots and they were perfect for step in bindings. I don’t thing the B3 thing had been invented then , they were all there was except for giant leather breeze blocks. 
 

how about Kevlar and all the modern a.b.s. Plastic malarkey. They will be the first boots to get to 950 quid. 

Interesting that this is still the technology of ski boots, so I doubt that brittle plastic in the cold is fundamental. 

I think it's age, not temperature, that causes the brittleness 

Yes, I'd go for age being the thing. My ski boots were fine on real mountains but after being on shelves in house for 15+ years and then cracked to pieces trying to ski in the Peak. 

Interesting thread and timely for me as by chance I stumbled upon my old Koflac boots in the shed last week and didn't realise I still had them.

I've had these plus some 101's and Vega's....been using Mantas now for a while as not really climbing much these days.

I liked plastics....they were great on proper climbs and most of my stuff was in Glencoe or the Ben so no long walk ins.

I started out winter climbing in Scarpa Dom...or was it Scarpa Bronzo?? Anyone remember these??

Plastics felt lightweight to me....relatively...!

I'm sort of surprised the love plastic boots are getting. I have a pair of Omegas and always thought they climbed like s*it when compared to more modern equivalents. Really clunky, imprecise and tonns of heel lift. Once I stopped doing multiday alpine stuff and didn't really need the double boot I have certainly never looked back.

I got on really well with omegas. Climbed upto VII in them....warm....used in Alps in winter.....light.....cheap. The cheapness was what sold me on them.

My first pair of plastics were Scarpa Grintas which seemed hewn from solid plastic. They didn't really fit me so I swapped them for Koflachs which were lighter, fitted me better but had very cheap and flimsy liners. My second pair of Koflachs were fluoro yellow Vario Extremes with a white collar and they had really good, mega-warm (alveolite?) inners. They were insanely light, much more so than the 101s I replaced them with. They were a bit clunky for mixed so I tended to us my Galibier RDs for that but one RD was heavier than the pair of Varios, and I occasionally got very cold toes with the RDs. The plastics were much better for steep ice though, so stable. My last pair of plastics, the 101s, disintegrated in my hands a few years ago so went in the bin which was a sad day. Koflachs had a very rockered sole whereas Asolos were flat but I liked the Asolos for winter walking as well as climbing, though I took a pair of trainers if it was long walk in on a track.

I love my Sportiva Nepals which are over 20 years old and on their second (or maybe third) pair of soles but there are occasionally aspects of plastics that I miss, especially if the boots get saturated on day one, not uncommon in Scotland. If I got serious about winter climbing again I'd splash out on lighter, more modern boots but I still reckon that plastics could have their place, especially when it gets seriously cold. 

A few years back three of us walked in from Arolla to the Dix hut. Or two of us did, our companion suddenly got very slow on the approach to the hut; when he caught us up we found that one of his Asolo Supersofts had crumbled away right round the sole unit, transformed into a clown shoe. We had an entertaining afternoon with the huttemeister’s roll of duct tape trying to patch it up enough to walk out again. (Our objective, Mont Blanc du Cheilon, dropped off his menu as soon as it happened)

He told us later that the makeshift repair only lasted about 400m and he had walked out along the Lac mostly in his socks…

I used to like my Supersofts, I had given them away a couple of years previously and regretted it until then!

The Omegas were the only plastics I didn't get on with so it's probably a different boots different feet thing rather than a plastic boots thing.