UKC

I really struggle to climb in front of people, particularly people I don't know, and especially in more unfamiliar styles. I often feel like I don't deserve to be there and I'm just embarrassing myself in front of people who are better than I am. If they're waiting for me to finish a route so they can get on, I feel like I'm just wasting their time and start panicking and feel like I can't try hard because I would rather give up than them see me fail. It's really disrupting my ability to enjoy myself whilst climbing and make any kind of progress as I often have to just leave in tears if there are others present. It's not something I experience in my everyday life, but for some reason I have it really badly in a climbing context and I don't know how to move past it. It's like extreme performance anxiety or something. Has anyone experienced anything similar and have some advice to offer?

In reply to kgosicat:

I think this is a troll and not a very good one at that

In reply to silhouette:

I don’t think it is. 
 

I experience something similar. It takes a while to go away. Usually when I’ve been going through a low period in life, or haven’t been climbing for a while. 
All I can offer is this: no one cares, and if they do, why should their opinion matter to you? 

In reply to kgosicat:

The obvious one would be to find somewhere quiet to climb.

In reply to kgosicat:

I've know a couple of people who have the same issue. It is not that uncommon. Both people I knew were female and naturally quite introverted. I don't know if that describes you also? 

Going to a quiet crag is one obvious answer. Or at least going to areas where most people are climbing a similar grade to you. Not one where all the wads hang out.

Also trying to remind yourself that most people you meet will not be judgmental and either won't pay any attention to you or will just be pleased/impressed that you are out giving it a go.

How do you feel when you see someone else climbing? Even if they are struggling/climbing badly most reasonable people wouldn't be judgemental about it, but just be impressed that they are trying.

In reply to kgosicat:

A friend of a friend who watched a programme on Channel 4 told me that dogging is like this.

In reply to kgosicat:

I'm sort of the other way round - I experience this in the rest of my life but not in climbing.

I think this is largely down to the fact that period in my life when I started taking climbing seriously was around the time I started to seek therapy for depression and anxiety, and therefore began to look introspectively and attempt to understand my own behaviour patterns. It was much easier to confront the behaviour and prevent it from becoming entrenched in a new activity than it was to change the behaviour in aspects of my life where the thought patterns were already well established.

Perhaps there was something going on around the time that you got into climbing that interfered with your normal response to the public exposure of learning a new skill, allowing the anxiety to creep in?

The two books that were influential in allowing me to see the patterns forming in my climbing and head them off were the Rock Warriors Way and 9 out of 10 Climbers Make The Same Mistakes, so I'd recommend these as a starting point (if you haven't already done so) for looking into performance anxiety in climbing.

Don't know if any of the above will chime with you, but I'm sure the answers to your personal anxiety will be out there, if you're prepared to spend the time reading, talking and looking within

In reply to kgosicat:

I feel like this about most aspects of my life.  I feel your pain.  I can't offer much advice as I've never gotten over it.  Whenever I'm trying something new I just try to make sure its on my own or with close friends ( who know what a mental f**kup I am and won't call me out for it).

In reply to kgosicat:

I have experienced the same when having a low period. I can only sat that you climb because you enjoy it, not to impress others, so climb in your own mental shell. Not easy but block out the distractions. If you are a route, then you have every right to take as long as you want to climb it, if others want to do that route, they will have to wait or find another route. You are the centre of your world once you leave the ground. Ignore them all (except your belayers words of wisdom!) and let them get on with their lives elsewhere/on another route. When I am on a route there are almost always better climbers than me around. Great! Between routes watch their technique. Believe in yourself. It may also help to push your grade if that is what you want to do. Detractors are usually insecure and afraid of being shown up!

In reply to kgosicat:

My mate climbed most of Billy Whiz before running out of steam on the last move.  We pulled the ropes through and I climbed it without too much hassle with the runners pre-placed.  As I topped out there was a huge round of applause from the audience that had gathered. If the crowd had assembled before I started I doubt very much that I would even have set off and would have probably just abbed and retrieved the gear.

I climb for my own satisfaction and fully acknowledge that it was Ray who had done all the hard work but I would be lying if I said I didn't enjoy the misplaced ego stroking at least in the moment.

Al

In reply to silhouette:

It's really frustrating that someone would come on here and talk about something that could be really hard for them and then the first comment dismisses it as make believe. Even if you doubt that someone could feel this way, why would you comment knowing that this person would read it? No good could come of it and at worst you could cement the idea that they are somehow abnormal. Well kgosicat should know that they are not abnormal and there are a great many people who feel this way when climbing or doing other activities with other people watching or even in general life. 

In reply to apwebber:

Agreed, why would you write about that feeling as it is not particularly provocative or controversial , I reckon it is something we have all felt at one time or another to a certain degree

In reply to kgosicat:

 It could be the spectators are having a good look at what you're doing to see where the tricky bits are and to visually clock gear placements. I'm generally OK with routes I pick but I have on occasion had a good look at the party ahead to get some info if I'm feeling a bit shakey.

In short, you're providing a vital public service for those who follow.

In reply to silhouette:

Would be a bit odd to register 4 years ago, then wait until now and to "troll" on this topic don't you think.  Unless you're simply trolling....

In reply to kgosicat:

My wife has a similar problem - probably stems from when, as a child, she had (undiagnosed until around 12) dyslexia and her family assumed this was simply "thick" - an opinion they appeared to be happy to share with her.  Even though she's gone on to have a more successful career than her siblings, and is the only one educated to degree level, she still hates to feel she's being judged, which impacts on her climbing when others are around.

In reply to kgosicat:

How can you make climbing a more joyful, fun and ridiculous experience ?

Climb easy stuff with big holds and nice moves

Listen to Iron Maiden in the car on the way

borrow a dog

Haribo

Novelty Hello Kitty earmuffs

Swear like a Norwegian Fisherman

Also its worth remembering the people watching are doing so out of novelty and curiosity not to judge or Mock.

In reply to kgosicat:

I can offer some CBT perspective. so when we're anxious our thinking style can change where we do this thing called mind-reading and we put our thoughts into other people's heads and we think our thoughts must be their thoughts i.e. they're thinking about you getting off the route or thinking you're not good. when reality is this is our anxious thought, not theirs.

a way to address this is to think what alternative thoughts they could be having. I.e. if they're looking at the route they're probably actually trying to analyse the beta, or maybe they are thinking themselves 'shit that route looks hard that they're on, I hope I don't embarrass myself when I try it next'. The reality is when someone is watching you on a route they're not interested in you and your abilities - they are probably actually analysing in their head only watching you for beta, looking at bolt placements, looking at the rock quality, working out which sections they'd find hardest etc.

I think we all think like this to a certain degree. I don't think there is a climber on here that doesn't feel sometimes pressure or anxiety or embarrassment if people are watching. 

The reality is is people at the crag are usually too wrapped up in their own thoughts, thinking about their projects, anxious themselves to notice what others are doing. If they're watching you on a route, they'll probably be having thoughts about the actual route itself, not about you. 

It might help to think of a time when you watched someone on a route - now do you remember what they looked like? what their name was? what they were wearing? what their ability was? what colour helmet they had on at the time? is it something you think about often or does it pale into insignificance now? on that day when you watched them were your thoughts consumed about them the whole time or were you more thinking about your own day and climbing ahead?

hope that helps

In reply to kgosicat: Hey pal, I can empathise with you here. While in Spain last winter I felt the same thing climbing in front of all the Euro WADS, but got through it by identifying the source of the problem. For me the source was a fear of failure. Like you I didn’t want to fall off in front of people because I saw it as failing but I soon realised giving up is the only time you actually fail in climbing. Falling off is as much a part of climbing as sending.

I told myself “you have as much right to be here as everyone else” or “they don’t care what I do” but at the end of the day, I really needed to just identify the source and work on that. Now I have and I’m happier than ever, it took time, but it was worth it! 

In reply to silhouette:

That's a remarkably insensitive comment, and potentially harmful to the poster. Good job there are plenty of more supportive posts.

I had a quick look at your profile expecting to see a teenager. Surprised to see you are older than me.

In reply to silhouette:

Well judging by the UKC Supporter banner, at least it's a paying troll

In reply to mountain.martin:

Actually you may well be right in which case apologies to the original poster.

In reply to kgosicat:

I used to feel very similar to you. I just tell myself that it is only climbing at the end of the day and you should be enjoying yourself. If you see someone climbing who is perhaps not as good as you, how do you feel - do you judge them, do you think they don't belong on a certain route? I'm pretty sure you don't and most of the time others don't too. No one really cares what you are doing (people are more interested in their own climbing), and no one has more right to be at the crag than you do, however hard they climb. There will always be someone better than you, and you will always be better than someone else

In reply to kgosicat:

At one time it happened all the time;  put downs that is and worrying about it. Not long after I first started climbing I watched an all star team from that era attempting a problem at Stoney. From well behind I thought I could see how to do it and very nervously asked did they mind if I had a go. They all looked round and then with exaggeration, waved me forward. I did do it and Martin Boysen commented “there’s a blacksmiths way of doing most things” I went off feeling put down, with my tail between my legs, but smugly satisfied. It was symptomatic of banter from that era and I went on to climb with Martin quite a lot. You need to be thick skinned and get on with it. I can at times still feel imposter syndrome, it’s a fact of life, but carry on regardless.

Thanks to everyone for your words of wisdom and solidarity!

In case there's still some doubt at this point, I'm not trolling, just paranoid I guess, which is also the reason I don't have much displayed on my profile haha 

I do try to climb at places which are quiet most of the time, but often the well travelled places are like that for good reason - if I never went there, I'd be missing out on some great routes! Also I don't know that other people are there until I arrive, and I don't want to just turn around and leave, especially when I'm with a partner who also wants to climb.

I definitely need to work on my ability to just do what I can and not worry about taking too long or failing or doing something silly. Somehow incorporate self esteem / anti performance anxiety training into my physical training routine...

In reply to kgosicat:

Hi there. Nice one for asking the question, it's not always easy to own up to things like this. I think a lot of people will have been through similar experiences; I know I did when I started climbing.

Apologies if I am covering things already suggested, I've not read all the replies. But there are two main suggestions I would make. These come from a combination of personal experimentation, and a professional background in both sport and clinical psychology.

The first one is relaxation exercises. One reason for this is that the lower your arousal level is when you get to the crag, the more tolerance you have to anxiety before it begins to have a detrimental effect. A second reason is to do with learning to rapidly bring your anxiety back down in the moment.

My preferred relaxation method is something like a slow breath in (4-5 seconds), hold for 4-5 seconds, and then breath out slowly while saying something like "relax" to yourself in your head. Try to always keep the at least as long as the in-breath (there are physiological reasons for that which help prompt a relaxation response). Don't set an alarm but repeat until you feel yourself settle into it nicely. Practice once per day, and before you go climbing. With practice your brain learns to associate a breath out and the cue word (e.g. "relax") with relaxation, and learns to respond more quickly. With practice, this learned association means that just one or two breaths along with the cue word can produce a very rapid reduction in arousal and can be used on the fly when at the wall or crag with no-one needing to know that you are doing it.

The second suggestion is expose yourself to the situation that makes you anxious. In this sense I would perhaps disagree with suggestions to just climb at quieter places or times, as this avoids the issue rather than deals with it. Initially this isn't necessarily going to be the most fun experience! However, each time you expose yourself to something anxiety provoking and nothing bad happens the anxiety response is weakened. So this means that when you feel that urge to lessen your anxiety by not climbing if someone is watching, or moving to a quieter part of the wall, the best thing is to ignore it and do exactly the thing that makes you anxious. Afterwards observe the outcome - if you were afraid that someone might laugh at you or tell you off, make a note of the fact that this (hopefully) didn't happen.

The critical thing with exposure is to avoid engaging in "safety behaviours". Safety behaviours are the avoidance methods we use to try to protect ourselves from anxiety. Unfortunately they often make things worse in the long run as we never get the opportunity to learn that we can cope with the situation and that there isn't really a threat. Common safety behaviours in this sort of situation might include only climbing when it's quiet, not trying things that are hard for us when others are around, stopping trying a problem once someone else gives it a go, etc. Each time you respond with a safety behaviour it probably lessens your anxiety in the short term, which is great. However, in the longer term you are potentially making things worse since you never really face the anxiety and you are strengthening a belief that the best way to cope with it is to use your safety behaviours. In practice this basically means that next time you feel that self-consciousness and anxiety, keep doing exactly the thing that is making you anxious. Stick with it. Your anxiety will spike, yes. However, as you repeat this experiment you should notice that over time the anxiety response becomes weaker and weaker (although it might take a fair few goes initially before you start to notice this).

Apologies for the long and slightly rambling post (dinner is cooking so have bashed this out slightly "stream of consciousness" style. Hopefully it makes sense but feel free to ask anything if it doesn't. 

In reply to kgosicat:

Thank you for bringing this subject up. I've found most of the responses helpful and I will be trying the relaxation breathing myself to try to settle my own anxiety.

In reply to kgosicat:

Climbing has a beautiful way of revealing all the little tricks our egos have to defend themselves against harm. Fortunately, ego harm is not fatal or even important, and anything we can expose ourselves to to burn it off is worth doing as it will only continue to limit us. Just remind yourself that what you’re doing is not important or interesting to anyone, at all. Everyone has this same (or its opposite, performance motivation) experience in climbing, school, art, or whatever. When these comforting thoughts we’ve  gone and attached our self-image to (re: “I’m good at this! I’m not annoying! I’m nice! I can move my body in a reasonably aesthetic manner”) prove to be false, it hurts and we want to quit. But the sooner you accept that you are not any of those things, and that no one else is either, and it’s not important, the more you’ll immediately begin to enjoy climbing again.  

In reply to AtLargesse:

Excellent advice!

In reply to kgosicat:

Come to Northern Scotland, nobody climbs here so you are pretty much guaranteed to be alone if you rock up (badoom tish) to any crag.

In terms of solving the mindgame rather than avoiding it, remember that you are not a professional climber (are you?), so you are climbing for yourself, not anyone else. It doesn't matter what other people are doing around you. For 99% of climbers, no matter how good you get there will be others you will bump into at the crag who completely eclipse anything you have done. Mediocrity is a state of all climbers really, it just takes some getting used to!

In reply to kgosicat:

I view climbing as a personal challenge. Doesn't matter what someone else can do. It's me and the lump of rock in front of me.

When watching others I'm either trying to learn how to climb better and it doesn't matter if I could flash their projects. I'm still learning. Or I'm offering support and encouragement. Or offering advice if they would like it.

I've never met a climber who has ever made fun of* or been annoyed about another climber trying the route they want. If I did I would step in.

We each have our on limits, challenges and battles. Climbing is a sport where someone who can flash an 8c and someone projecting a 5a can chat and help each other enjoy climbing.

Some of my favourite days out on the rock have been with climbers who aren't as strong as me. Where we've climbed some easy V.Diffs and I've left my project for the next day.

*Stuff like laughing at your mate who just trip over their feet and face planted on a VB excluded.** Unless they have confidence issues.

**That was me...

In reply to kgosicat:

I used to feel a bit like this when I started out climbing indoors. With so many people about it can feel like all eyes are on you but one thing I’ve realised over the last few years is people really don’t care about how other people climb! I mean it’s good to watch someone fight up a route regardless of the grade but i don’t think anyone’s ever really judging you even if it can feel like that’s the case!

Outdoors it can feel like there’s pressure if you’re on a route someone else wants to do but unless you’re on there hours people are totally happy to wait. Sometimes if a crag is busy I find it more calming to get on a route and get engrossed in that, forgetting about everything back on the ground. I can understand how you might feel the opposite though! Much easier said than done but don’t worry about it! I expect you’ll get more confident and happier as you get more experienced and familiar with people/places you climb a lot. 

In reply to kgosicat:

I totally understand this. It's one of the reasons I don't go bouldering very often - I actively dislike the bit where everyone crowds around watching each other. I'm much happier being above people's eyeline, where I can't be seen as easily.

I know people aren't really watching me or judging, and that even if they are then their opinion doesn't matter, but I've still felt that I shouldn't be there.

I'm afraid I don't have any answers, or strategies, but I hope it helps a bit to know you're not alone.