UKC

Anyone else noticing that some brands of outdoor gear that used to be renowned for quality and durability are starting to fall to bits?

In particular at the moment I'm thinking shoe manufacturers but other items have also come to my attention.

I bought some five ten approach shoes and they were so poorly made I sent them back without wearing them outside.

I bought some Dolomite approach shoes and the rubber rands all cracked in less than 6 months where so they were returned for a refund.

I bought some Scarpa crux approach shoes and the soles started peeling off so they went back.

I tried on a second pair of Scarpa crux but the design had changed so there was now a thick lump of stitching rubbing on top of my big toe so I stumped up and bought some Scarpa Vortex GTX which leaked like a sieve after 4 and have just been replaced.

My previous pair of Scarpa approach shoes lasted so well the uppers were still pretty good and waterproof even after I'd worn through the outsoles. 

How long can these brands continue living on their names when they're asking for £170 for a pair of shoes that are only good for 4 months?

Anyone else finding their kit falling to bits prematurely?

I think stuff generally seems to be not as durable, I was only bleating on  yesterday to someone about a caving oversuit that is coming apart after only 3 digging trips 

Bought a pair of Tenaya Masai's 2 months ago and the sole is already delaminating, it's a shame because I really like the shoes. 

Brand makes good outdoor kit with features outdoor people want

Brand sells lots of stuff to outdoorsy people

Brand gets noticed by famous/popular/trendy people with adventurous image

Demand for brand's stuff from city folk who find long backs inconvenient and hard wearing fabrics unnecessary but want to look like famous/popular/trendy people overtakes demand from outdoorsy people 

Brand scales up manufacturing and value engineers product to meet new demand and/or sells out to Adidas with same result

Brand's product goes to shit

Outdoorsy people move on to next brand

Repeat

It’s only fair that I mention Inov-8’s quality. Their Mudclaws used to be indestructible and then years ago they went through a bad patch when I had several pairs that prematurely fell apart. But now they seem to have improved their quality once again and they stand any amount of abuse. 
I did chat to a retailer who now won’t stock Inov-8, mostly because of the previous quality issues. 

I have seen a significant deterioration in perceived quality in outdoor kit since I started buying my own gear in the late 80's and early 90's.

I am going to attribute it to a few things.

1. The race to 'lightweight' I cannot understand why consumers are happy to buy tents which are built to an advertised weight for marketing purposes that then require the use of a footprint and some proper pegs.

2. Manufacturers used to have a far smaller range and these products would be made for several years with minor changes. This allowed them to invest properly in the product and resolve quality issues. Now it seems to be vital to have a new products for every season. 

3. Focus on aesthetics rather than function. The kit is marketed for the outdoors but the real money is in selling it to people who like the idea of outdoor activities. These people will not use it for the intended purpose so the use of materials that are happy being thrutched up a granite chimney are less relevant.

Rab went through a bad patch of stitching coming undone, I haven’t brought anything since.

Currently using Salewa Crow boots, but they do wear quickly. Sadly they are the best fit for me.

I think (very luckily) Mountain Equipment still seems to be making quality gear that doesn't seem to be too fussed about selling for fashion.

The worry is if this lack of quality begins to permeate into life supporting climbing gear!

Regulation is your friend here.

This. Quite literally this. 

The amount of brands that are now just focusing on 'lifestyle' clothing is getting beyond a joke.  We were in the Lakes last autumn and the weather was good for nothing so we did what all good climbers do and eat as much cake as possible and peruse all the outdoor shops.

By the time we entered the third it was becoming a joke, sort of like a better version of inception, every shop we went into had exactly the same thing..... those really thin micro down jackets that don't serve much purpose... everywhere..... That's all there was, it did not matter what you wanted it had to be a down puffy jacket. 

My partner asked in one shop for a couple of climbing bits "sorry we don't stock that, but have you thought about a micro down jacket...."

We had exactly the same reoccurring dream in north Wales the other day but this time the micro down had been replaced with goretex jackets!

I sort of, clearly wrongly so, assumed you would have a few different types of everything in a shop to cater for different people doing different activities - but the current trend just seems to just stock one type of thing, and stock as many as possible.  

There are still those little hidden gems of outdoor shops that have some funky stuff in them, but they are becoming harder to find as the 'big brands' just keep getting bigger (and the quality lower - shoes I think are the worst at the moment). 

I have pretty much resorted to only buying outdoor gear online now, it makes it a pain for sizing, but I can get the different brands I want / need. 

Don't get me started on Gore-Tex jackets. Obviously there is no issue with buying quality clothes, but you definitely do not need to waste nearly 400 quid on a Rab Latok to walk the dog (something I have seen!).

Scarpa have been good for me.  All the brands make some rubbish at some point, even Arcteryx.

Agreed, both me and my old man have been rather dissatisfied with the longevity of Salomon and Inov8 shoes over the last few years.... 

Over 100 quid for a pair of kicks that don't last is a just a joke....especially as they're dedicated 'walking' shoe.

It's not just outdoors kit, it's everything, everywhere, all the time in our disposable society. Features over durability, image over performance, products that die 5 minutes after the warranty expires, consumers with such huge disposable incomes that they can buy a new copy of each item in their life every 6 months/year/5 years (depending on item) so they don't prioritise durability properly, fast fashion, a flood of cheap Chinese items to whom not only durability but also quality control is anathema at the bottom end of the market.

If enough people start selecting for durability, the modern trend just might be forced into reverse but I wouldn't hold your breath over it.

Customer reviews are now pointless too, you can find any number of 95% 5 star items online which are complete garbage and don't perform their intended function even on the first use.

I think it's still possible to get a quality item if you put aside 4 or 5 hours to thoroughly research it and, read group test results from professional reviewers on several different sites and compile a spreadsheet/doc table of how every item on the market stacks up across those reviews. But it's hard to find the time and motivation to do that for every item you want to buy.

Going to have to disagree with you here. £100 is far too cheap for a pair of walking shoes and at that price I'd say they would be practically guaranteed to fail to perform. These days £100 about buys a pair trainers you can scuff about the house in.

5-10 have always been..  I was going to say flaky but that's unfair, they were never consistently flaky - or consistently anything else.  You could buy two pairs of shoes in the same shop on the same day and have one pair last for ages after the other fell to bits.

In the same spirit, I've had a pair of every model of Saucony Peregrines since about the 3's I think. (I mostly seem to wear them out just about in time for the next pair to be the new version.) They've never been anything less than hard wearing, and the most recent pair in particular seem to be absolutely bomber.

To be honest if I had spent £400 on a jacket I would be wearing it all the time, even in bath!

If you really want that hardened outdoor look nothing beats vintage paramo with that classic 'paramo' cut, none of that modern 'alpine fit' rubbish! Or failing that a full set of Keela Munros..... Walk the dog in the morning, walk to the south pole in the evening! 

Why stop there? How about full down Himalayan body suit to walk to Waitrose in November, it can get quite nippy!

For the full Himalayan experience the thing to do is get the Waitrose wallahs to do the hard work for you and go for a home delivery

I think that making durable gear is bad for business, as you never need to replace it. If kit lasts a lifetime, you'll only buy one of them. Which is good from the customers perspective, but not great for the brand.

(Obligatory anecdote.)

I've got a Karrimor (Accrington) rucksack that's 40+ years old. I was using it to decant stone and sand from ton bags and move them up the garden. After 5 tons over a couple of months, its looking tatty, but still intact.

I also think it is part of a trend in consumerism, to replace stuff regularly. Just look at watches. People will drop £500+ on a smart watch. Then in 2 years, its end of life, support drops and you're encouraged to buy a new one. Back in the day, people would spend that on a watch that they would pass onto their kids.

Then post a video to Instagram with the shopping detailing how much work you did to get the shopping

+1 for ME. I am yet to find any flaws or quality issues with any of their kit. Unlike some of the other brands around, ME seem to design for function, rather than to hit a price point, which certainly seems to be the case for some very shoddy stuff I've had from Rab and Montane, who will not be getting any more of my money.

So far I've had three pairs of Scarpa shoes for the price of one so it can't be that good for the bottom line.

On a side note, can anyone recommend somewhere to get a rucksack repaired? I need some restitching and zips replacing. Struggling to find anyone close by (Cheshire) who will do it

Sheffield, so not ideal for you but very good: https://www.mulchandthebrokenthing.com/

Now it was 5 years ago but I got a pair of Salomon walking shoes for £40 and they did >1200 miles before I binned them. Replaced them with an identical pair (although I think I paid in the £50s for that pair) and they did another 1000. 

For anyone interested, it was this pair: https://www.trailspace.com/gear/salomon/eskape-aero/

I bought a pair of Merrell approach shoes (to replace an identical pair that a desert fox allegedly stole) for about £60 from Decathlon). I have now worn them virtually every day for more than six months and they are great still. I might stockpile enough pairs for the rest of my life.

https://lancashiresportsrepairs.co.uk/

Stick it in the post and send it off to Scottish Mountain Gear - if you need several zips and other repairs it may be beyond economic repair, but it all rather depends on replacement cost and how loved it is.  There is a rucksack repair price guide on their website.

I'm also a big fan of ME kit, but their recent advertising campaigns have me worried. "Live for the line", "When nothing else matters" sounds like a cry for help from a design team in the grips of a really nasty chop habit...

Had a few Rab jackets and thought they were pretty average. Light, but in a bad way. The warm jacket was never particularly warm and the soft shell was too warm and fell apart. Bought a £80 Berghaus hard shell jacket 10years ago and it was so good I wont consider any other brand now. It was defeated by a severe hawthorn tussle

> Brand's product goes to shit

A good summary. I can't think why you got the dislikes - this is exactly what happens!

Yes first sign of the decline is usually appearing in large chains like Go Outdoors.

Quality brands tend to be more selective and only stock specialist shops that they know will have the staff expertise to sell the product based on its functionality, rather than it having to sell itself based on price/appearance.

Agreed.  I've had/am having years of wear from my Merrell shoes, can't really fault them.  They appear to be virtually indestructible!

Even ME has issues, I still have a fleece from the eighties that gets worn occasional, newish gortex, 3 years old, zip failed it was a rather cold wet day thereafter.  Even the best have issues.

I had a very similar experience with approach shoes a couple of years ago and got so annoyed that I actually wrote my first and only gear review:

https://rockaroundtheworld.co.uk/2020/12/22/you-dont-always-get-what-you-pa...

My biggest issue wasn't just with the iffy quality (even the best can make mistakes) but the customer service response and ownership. No spoilers but have a read to hear the contrasting experiences from Arcteryx, 5.10, La Sportiva and Decathlon (and be prepared to reevaluate your preconceptions). 

On the other hand, I have had Merrels where the sole was lethally slippy in the wet, and which fell apart in no time. I won't touch them again.

I'm on my third pair of La Sportiva TX4s. The TX5s, however, are disappointing...

Big down vote for Innov-8 shoes, recent pairs have lasted next to no time, won't go near them again.

I think there are a lot of factors; tighter profit margins and not passing on to the end user the full increase in cost of production has lead to using cheaper materials/manufacturing process.

Poorer durability = replacing more regularly. 

Some weird marketing of making an ever lighter product justifies the above maybe.

Target audience buying for aesthetics > durability and function.

I'll defend Go outdoors in this case as they've been very good at sorting out my returns without any issues. And, although they do sell some real junk they've been selling supposedly premium brands like Rab, Scarpa, La sportiva etc. for 20 years when the products were legitimately good quality and expensive but still good value.

I had merrells that were waterproof for all of 3 weeks. And a regular non-goretex pair that fell apart after 6 months. Never buying Merrell again.

Decathlon will replace just about anything no questions asked. It's just some kid who is on the same hourly rate no matter what and they are massive superstore making everything by the tens of thousand - if 1 in 20 people bring a thing back with a fault, they'll just bin it and give the 1 in 20 a new item without probably even losing money on the original sale.

It's great in a way as a customer, and I don't think Decathlon kit is any worse than any other brand for quality, but I do feel a bit bad about the bin-and-replace method in terms of sustainability. Lots of other brands used to do the same but there is some move towards the fix-and-return model which is hopefully better from a environmental point of view.

That’s disappointing to hear when I was praising them upthread. What model were they? I stocked up on Mudclaw 300s a couple of years ago when they were good. 

Various roclite models. Gradually they went kaput quicker and quicker, design gradually decreased too. My recent pair the lace system was rubbish and completely perished!

I’ve been a big Mountain Equipment fan over the years and have a pro shell jacket now. It’s very good and will last. 
 

For years I sought to replace one of their Ultrafleece guide jackets and bought the new one when it came out.

Not overly impressed and sent it back. Sizing was poor and the forearms too tight.

I managed to get an old one off fleebay for £40 after years of looking and it’s superb, probably 25 years old and good as new. I doubt I’ll need another.

Same for a warm pile jacket. I’ve managed to get a HH Lausanne for £15 off fleebay too. Again in very good condition and will last me out I’m sure.

The trick is to forget the fashion and look for second hand vintage stuff.

Hard with footwear, but then I buy Alltberg boots which are expensive but great.

Fjalmraven Barents and Vidda trousers are expensive but good hill kit, and long lasting.

Good stuff is out there

Really? I’ve been disappointed over how quickly a succession of TX4s have worn out, but so far very impressed with my TX5s. What was the issue with your TX5s?

Previously the original 5:10 Camp 4s were excellent, but of course the more recent iteration totally crap with soles falling off after a short time

I think it's also quite hard to compete on durability - if your thing is cheaper and lighter and has more features than the competition then that's a very concrete thing that people can see in the shop. If you've passed on that to make it more durable then that's something they're going to have to take on trust, or even if people are hip enough to identify that you've used a genuinely harder-wearing fabric or construction method than the competition (and not just used the regular stuff but described it as "rugged" or "hard wearing"), they (or I) will probably be painfully aware that all it takes is one weak point in the design and they're back where they started.

I must admit I got a bit peeved with expensive approach trainers and decided to use cheap brands that had a decent looking sole. I've been through a number of sets but my recent or the set I have used for over 6 months now have really impressed. Karrimor Verdi low. Looks are not their strong point but they do perform. They seem pretty waterproof as even now squelching through boggy pathless ground on Wednesday they still stayed dry inside. Use for mainly mountain crag walk ins such as the Isle of Arran. Used to scramble into mountain rock routes and even on easy ground at the top of routes. Probably no harder than diff. For the sake of £30 I would buy again if they even self destructed now. The tread is starting to be noticeably worn but they have had a hard life on a lot of Arran granite.

Only draw back is you don't look very cool, pro climber in the pub but you can keep your Scarpa's nice and shiny for that purpose.    

I bought some asics trail running shoes about a year ago now and have been using them for approach and scrambling duties. They're actually pretty good. Better than anything I've had from Salomon etc.

The TX4s fit me like a glove. First pair worn one day before starting TMB. I had no foot problems at all, and never have. Each new pair fits perfectly, too

Each pair lasts me about 18 months, worn pretty much as my daily footwear. The soles are fairly thin, and grippy rubber, but they last as long as the uppers. I'm pretty light on my feet. The lacing is perfect; each loop stays where you set it, and it is easy to lace and unlace.

I bought the TX5, expecting identical fit and similar lacing, just sturdier, more aggressive sole, and GTX lining (though that was not really a selling point for me). The fit is much tighter, and the lacing system is rubbish, and hard to adjust.

I wanted a pair of TX4s with the more aggressive sole. The TX5s are not that, IMHO, sadly.

Ah well TX5 seem to fit me well, much more supportive than TX4, luck of the draw I guess

Indeed. But there's no excuse for the shit lacing, when the TX4 system is just about perfect.

But it's infuriating that two shoes, from the same manufacturer, in the same 'series' are such a different fit.

I was down the Asda and saw a guy who looked the opposite of ‘outdoorsy’ wearing a Fitzroy with designer jeans.  The end is nigh! 

God, only if you want it back next year.

sent a jacket in March, Got it back

bloody July!!!!!!

I’ve found the TX5s to be one better than the TX4s. 

Tbh…wouldn’t class any of those brand as premium?

So which brands would you call premium?

Compared with brands like Hi-tec, Regatta, or Karrimor, I think they count as premium. It's all relative, I guess.

Lots of Inov8 comments, were they ever durable? 
I always remember them being rather flimsy. They started as a small mountain running company then got into cross fit and all the designs became rubbish.

Salomon and Arcteryx are Chinese owned now, Arc quality noticeably dropped after they were acquired. Lots of specialised pieces disappeared from the range in favour of more fashionable items. Salomon seem to be ok still (although I only use their running vests, which are still the best) 

I agree that ME is the best for well thought out technical designs and good quality, although sizing can be a bit weird. 

Even worse is when you find rock shoes that fit your hooves and they stop making the damn things. I am looking forward to getting my shoes back from feet first next week!

Exactly my experience with the TX4. I've just had a pair resoled as they fit so well and the uppers are in great condition despite wearing them all the time.

The TX5 boots I tried were lower volume and fitted me really badly.

When you find a pair you like, buy another three pairs. I don't need to go looking again for a good few years.

I think we oldies were spoilt with Walshes in by gone days. They lasted for ever and you could take them to Pete Blands for a cheap resole at least once.

My last two pairs of Innov8 Mudclaws (Blue and Green) have been disappointing to say the least. Either the uppers split or the studs simply disappeared long before the memory of how much they cost had faded.

This. The market is flooded with stuff which is generally way too cheap for its stated use or durability claims. Especially brands with a wide price range are guilty of this, Salomon is a good case in point. 

I think the outdoor shoe industry in particular is 'suffering' from this. Traditionally, everything was either double-stitched or cemented - and hence very durable and expensive. Nowadays, brands are moving to injection-moulding their midsoles more and more, which is cheaper because it involves less manual labour. It's also much less durable. Hence your 150 quid hikers fall apart after a year. 

I used to think that until my feet grew in my late 50s! Having said that, my spare Scarpa Crux shoes turned out to be a perfect fit for my newly enlarged feet - good thing they remodelled the fit without telling anyone. They look the same as the previous model but are different.

Where? I continue to wear them for casual use when I get down to the midsole, until the uppers give up. I had contemplated getting the rubber resoled before then.

I remember an article in Fellrunner years ago praising Inov8 for developing biodegradable footwear, and not in a good way.

That said, I have a pair of Rocklite 305 that seem to be doing OK. Holes appearing at the flex points, but that happens with any brand of shoe these days.

I also feel like a big problem now is that brands which used to only produce high quality durable gear, now produce a spectrum of different qualities and durabilities, making the brand name nearly pointless.

Durability used to be something that was assumed, something that a good quality brand at the time like Rab would include with all of their products, even if it was a cheaper model.

Nowadays if you’re not spending 400 pound on a jacket, then you are sacrificing durability and quality. I don’t get why specialist brands even bother, it will definitely make them more money, but I will no longer buy Rab hard shells since the zip on my Zenith went after 2 months of light use.

Cheshire Shoe Repair do them in Vibram friction soles. 

Thanks; I'll remember that for the third pair...

I stopped buying Patagonia stuff about 12 or13 years back when every zip ( all 5)on my lovely hooded fleece failed within a year.

you didn't just get them to repair it?

I have 15 yrs old patagonia stuff that has been repaired for free again and again.

Other stuff they've just replaced, no questions asked.

Not saying that their stuff doesnt fail occasionally but they always seem to make it right and usually without sending stuff to landfill

I actually burned a hole in the back of a fleece and they offered to contribute up to £30 towards the repair.  

Yes, I've experienced too tight forearms with Patagonia of all people, only explicable by penny pinching fabric saving.

That's not a likely explanation. 

More likely they just have skinny armed fit models. It's useful to let them know if their fit is wrong, although they won't necessarily do anything about it. I quite like Patagonia gear but it's all too short in the body and arms for me.

I like Patagonia, they did have an annoying phase where they change the fit of everything every year, seem better now though. They always seem to discontinue the good technical stuff too, which goes back to the fashion side being more profitable 

 Or by the fact that some people's bodies are a different shape to yours?!

Yeah. I had the same problem with a Rab waterproof too and I haven’t got massive forearms. 
 

You would think that adequate forearm sizing would be paramount for a climbing jacket?

To give some balance to the thread. I work in a shop, that in a year sells 1000s of items by Patagonia, Rab and ME. The number of returns we receive are vanishingly small.

I have standard forearms and nothing else that I own is as skinny armed as the patagonia garment (which is supposed to be an outer layer but I can squeeze a shirt under it at best, forget a fleece).. Suggests that it is the garment that is an outlier, not me.

Online reviews seem to agree.

Funny you should mention Scarpa - I've got a pair of Moraine GTX approach shoes and last time I wore them in the rain, I got soaked toes on my left foot.

I've had them a couple of years, but they've had a very easy life and otherwise still look pretty new, so I'm a bit annoyed with that.

I'm tempted to try the "not fit for purpose" argument that trumps the usual 1 year warranty - pretty sure I've still got the receipt in my online archives.

And another one. I've got a Marmot waterproof jacket which, again, had had a fairly easy life, bought on a bit of an impulse and mainly used for very light duties.

Then I wore it walking for a day with a 35 day pack and that almost wore a hole in the back of the material! I know it's quite a lightweight jacket, but I'd expected it to survive that.

It's now got to the point where I've had to re-glue most of the seam tape back on, but I still like the styling and it does what's needed, so I persevere.

Not sure if anyone has mentioned it yet, but third rock clothing has always disappointed me.  Maybe me/others I know have just gotten unlucky, but considering their clothing is advertised as for climbers, the durability and quality of their clothing is really disappointing.  Arses that fall apart and knees that rip open very easily. Fabric that is comfy but doesn’t hold up to abuse. Unless they improve their quality and fabric selection I’d really struggle to consider or recommend them. 

Third rock talk about sustainability and ethical practice but get products made in Israel...

I think that's mostly nonsense. If it were true, DMM, Mountain Equipment, Wild Country, Montane, Rab and Black Diamond must all be nearing rock bottom soon, given that these brands have been sold in Go Outdoors for years. 

As far as I can tell, many of the reviews get put on within a couple of weeks of purchase (probably prompted by a never-ending stream of emails from the company concerned if you bought online), so certainly won't be any relevance to durability, and are just as likely to be a review of the company's customer services or postage competence than any useful comment on the actual product.

I generally find online reviews to be a bit rubbish (especially the blog type long reviews) as they never really say the limitations of the product that well, and are generally very positive about the product (I suspect to avoid annoying the supplier). Customer reviews usually always say it’s good too, I suspect this is a psychological thing as no one wants to admit they bought a bad product. They bad reviews are usually from people who bought something inappropriate for their need 

Like most I feel recently there has been a huge decrease in the quality of outdoor clothing. But on the flip side I have been wearing Keela kit recently and I am genuinely impressed. 

I was up on Kinder this Saturday and I don't think it stopped raining from the moment I rolled out of bed to when I rolled back in it. I wore both the Munro jacket and salopettes which in all honesty are overkill for this time of year, I was certainly getting pretty toasty on the walk in and I must have (I did) looked ridiculous wearing such a big winter coat next to a base layer. 

By the end of our 20/21km route they were starting to wet through but that both a mix me sweating and that awkward 'its raining, but not raining enough to have every draw cord pulled tight'. Considering they are about a third of the price of top brand gortex they performed just as well. 

At the same time the price of a lot of kit has been soaring, starting well before the current cost of living crisis. I find it hard to imagine any justification other than greed, however I'd be very interested to hear from anyone who can explain the cost breakdown.

I had to buy a pair of waterproof trousers at short notice this winter, I had pretty specific requirements and the only thing I could get that fit the bill cost almost £500 - for a pair of trousers.. Fortunately the retailer was very kind to me and knocked a good bit off. Equipment costs for my business are absolutely shattering these days, a new pair of walking poles from a major brand, more than 200 quid, mechanism on one of them failed in less than a week.

If you look at similar products from different market sectors you can find big disparities in price, for example a pair of chainsaw boots featuring Goretex and Vibram, crampon compatible etc they can cost almost half the price of something that looks similar from a mountain brand.

Personally I think we're being totally shafted and have been for a long time, am I wrong?

 

Everything costs what it does for a reason. While there are doubtless outliers where there is pure shafting going on, most things that are expensive will be expensive because of the costs of development and/or production that are involved.
Often for things that are cheap, the shafting is happening at the other end of the chain...

Agree Rich - waterproof gloves that are rated to whatever EU regulation for working in sub zero temps are about 10% of equivalent winter gloves for mountaineering - and likely equally as easy to use for finer tasks given their design for indoor (freezer!) manual work. 

The problem is that people buy the stupidly expensive gear...

So, rents, flats/houses, gas/cars and food are now cheaper? 

As who ever works in the full supply chain (from manufacturing to actually selling you the product at the store) also need to live... they also need to buy food, pay rent and so on. If living costs are high, then are also all products. It's called inflation...

Just to emphasise this, I bought a wickedly expensive Arc'teryx Beta hardshell in late 90s. If taken into account Finland joining Euro conversion and inflation... the price is not all that different on what a Beta AR jacket retails now... But there has been quite a few iterations of it, so quite a bit of RnD costs, and still the price of the product is almost the same some 20+ years after... makes you wonder...

We have seen a jump in prices of almost everything in the past couple of years, but generally I think climbing kit is in real terms cheaper than it was when I started buying it in the early 90s. I doesn’t feel that way, because we remember the prices we paid 30 years ago.

I really looked around at the alternatives this time but just couldn't find any with a low volume narrow fit that I need. Everything cheaper seems to be a wider more padded shape.

The Bank of England inflation calculator suggests that my Scarpa vortex shoes that cost about £80 in 2010 should be about £120. I know this is a very crude estimate for many reasons but there's a massive disparity between that and the £170 they're asking for now.

Material inflation, labour inflation, transport cost inflation and the weakening of GBP (Brexit did not help on that front) have all driven prices higher and higher. 

Add in that bricks and mortar retail is losing ever more market share to online.  This means that those still in business, need to ensure that their margins, from reduced sales volume, can keep their operations afloat.

Where things are excessively cheap I absolutely agree with you, the shafting is going on in Vietnam, or China or Bangladesh. But that makes my question even more pertinent, if it costs a fortune and is made where labour is cheap where's the money going? 

Cotswold in Betys y Coed don't sell ANY climbing gear at all now, not even guide books.....

Walking poles? £200? I didn't know Apple made walking poles......

Black Diamond Trail Pro Trekking poles £90 from a large retailer......

In neither of the Betws shops? They still did last time I was there (admittedly that was earlier this year) in the main shop by the pub. 

I’ve just clicked on a few random bits of climbing kit on their website and the more common things are showing as in stock at Betws.

Cotswolds have two shops in Betws, the climbing is in the old outlet shop. If i was after climbing gear I’d be off to V12 or Joe’s anyway.

I have, over the years, had several pairs of Merrell's chameleon shoes.  I thought they were terrific, and I was a satisfied customer. 

Then they started to wear out more quickly , and then they changed the design.  I am no longer a customer.

On a more positive note, another vote in favour of Mountain Equipment.  My 30 year old ultrafleece jacket will outlast me.

T.

Not in the main one.....

Seems to be a particular problem with shoes; until recently I'd worn Salomon XA Pros everywhere, without fail, for years. My most recent pair had no tread left by the time they'd broken in enough to stop destroying my heel. I moved on to a pair of Hoka Torrent2, and they are a particularly lightweight shoe - but even still, I don't think it's right that the tread/sole started peeling away from the shoe within 100 miles. Alas they fit like no other shoe I've ever worn, zero breaking-in required, and so I bought a new pair to do the Pyrenean haute route in. I'm currently in Gavarnie, glueing tread back to shoe.

I can second those who vouch for Mountain Equipment though. Most of my clothing is ME because I seem to fit their 'model' body shape exactly, and I've yet to be disappointed by any single item of ME clothing or gear.

The trend towards lightweight gear can surely only be part of the problem; in the case of my shoes I'd happily accept general degredation of the shoe to be the price paid for going lightweight - but the sole peeling off an otherwise immaculate shoe? That's ridiculous

Responding in general, 

https://gearjunkie.com/apparel/live-out-there-outdoor-gear-direct-to-consum...

Recently managed to get a good deal on a Tupilak jacket and have to say it is by far the best waterproof jacket I have used by some way. The fit and design, as well as waterproofing out of the box and material is significantly better than any of the Rab hardshell coats I have used before and feels like it could last decades.

Someone upthread also mentioned the current trend for constantly updating and redesigning stuff and releasing new things every season, and I wonder whether that's part of it? Rather than gradually ironing out the problems in a design, tweaking materials and construction methods, sorting out specific weak points etc, everything goes back to the drawing board for a complete redesign with a whole bunch of new problems every couple of years.

Some recent relevant research from the University of Leeds
https://www.leeds.ac.uk/main-index/news/article/5346/why-price-does-not-ind...

The interesting part is about the testing processes and moving towards creating a durability 'industry standard'

Some recent relevant research from the University of Leeds
https://www.leeds.ac.uk/main-index/news/article/5346/why-price-does-not-ind...

The interesting part is about the testing processes and moving towards creating a durability 'industry standard'

An interesting read I wonder how well this transfers to outdoor clothing in specific? 

I think maybe it didn't used to apply, but since the whole 'designer' fashion ethos has begun to permeate the outdoor brands it seems to make more sense.

Surely it's not in the interests of the the fashion "industry" to create clothes with more durability? Isn't that a microcosm of how industrial capitalism flourishes? Built in obsolescence?

I don't think this is a current trend at all.  Gear and clothing, for many outdoor sports and pastimes, has been updated almost every season, since I started paying attention in the 80's. 

I think proven durability could be quite attractive to customers and offer commercial advantage. Especially for outdoor gear. 

Although proven durability as a differentiator may be difficult, as everyone is starting with the same basic materials and fabrication processes. 

Have to agree I like Keela kit. 

I bought a pair of Salomon XA Pros years back and it quickly became obvious that they just didn’t fit me very well at all. I stubbornly kept them though and wore them just for short muddy walks from home. I hoped they would self-destruct so that I could feel ok about buying something new and exciting but they were probably the most enduring shoes I’ve ever had. Indestructible. Only just got rid of them.

I used to really enjoy them as a shoe, but the most recent pair really didn't agree with my heel, and by the time the heel had 'broken in' (IE the foam had started to fall apart), there was no tread on the forefoot. My previous experience suggests the heel issue is more of an issue with the Goretex version than the non-Goretex version, which is a bit strange. I feel the quality of XA Pros has gradually slid downhill, but maybe I've just been unlucky. Or maybe they've slightly tweaked the design such that it agrees less now with my foot?

In contrast, the current pair of Hokas have done 200 miles and the tread has torn away from the sole in a couple of places, and the tread has worn away on the forefoot. 200 miles. On a shoe that's supposedly designed for the terrain I'm wearing it in. Seriously unimpressive. But also, zero breaking in required. I started my Pyrenees trip with a brand new pair, and I've had zero issues whatsoever, despite having wet feet for most of the first week.

If someone designs and releases a minimalist non-shoe that can actually withstand normal mountain terrain, I'll be all over it.

I've some DryFlo T-shirts by Lowe Alpine which must be getting on for 30 years old.  They're starting to fade a bit, but there are no holes and the stitching is sound.  Lowe Alpine stopped making clothing several years ago, possibly because their customers bought once and never came back.

I've got two of those Lowe Alpine dryflo t-shirts of a similar vintage. Been used heavily running, climbing and backpacking. No holes and stitching sound also. Both white so no fading issues, though probably less white (when washed) than they were 25 years ago

AV Holloch

Given that they went bust, I'd hazard a guess they weren't charging enough to be a viable business...

"looks similar" doesn't mean they're the same, workwear has very different functions to activewear, do you wear these boots for winter climbing/walking?

Do you honestly think there are secret suppliers of equal products the public are just unaware of?  

A friend of mine who is a mountain guide swears by his industrial gloves in place of any of the outdoor branded gloves, at a fraction of the cost.