UKC

https://www.facebook.com/BBCQuestionTime/videos/930597950478645/

legal cannabis would certainly alleviate my arthritis.It would also help cancer patients.

If you want the CBD benefits (the healthy bit) rather than the get high bits (THC) then you can walk into a shop in the UK and buy it now.  I believe even Holland & Barratt do CBD oil.

And others that are closer to the legal line: https://vedascbd.com/cannabis-coffeeshop/ (Yes this place exists, and yes it is technically legal due to high cbd and low thc content) not sure how long before they run into trouble

I don't think it cures arthritis. It does make you feel better of course.

Yes it's a good palliative drug, if that's the right word. My brother in law died of cancer a while ago and in the last few weeks of his life he had a joint every evening. My sister, who is a nurse, was sure it was effective in relaxing him and easing his pain. I also once met someone who had lost their arm in a motorcycle crash. The injury left him with chronic back pain. Because you only have one arm the back muscles that are no longer connected to anything waste away while the muscles on the other side twist your spine. He spent two years on opioids and felt the drugs were slowly killing him. One night he stayed a friends house after a night in the pub and a couple of joints, no morphine based pain killers that night as they didn't mix with the alcohol. The next morning he realised he had had the first night of unbroken sleep since his accident. Since then he chucked the prescription meds and relied on having a toot instead.

Of course what you're talking about is making cannabis available on prescription rather than making it legal. However, the experience in the USA is that allowing cannabis to be used medically inevitably leads to it being completely legalised.

It's probably easier to get now than it will be if they legalise it. Sunday trading hours will apply right? So just get some if you want some. You spend plenty of time on YouTube.... Watch a vid on how to connect to tor and get some bitcoin. 

Alleviate.Quite enough.

youtube.com/watch?v=dEpBLS0kK-w&

Olivia Newton John on her experience.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rQcK1-2V6A&fbclid=IwAR0g-idmynOvT8BYLr...

..and a doctor on the topic.

More accurately,

I feel there is a problem here in that CBD is being viewed by many as an end to all suffering, and a miraculous drug that will transform the lives of billions. This is patently absolute rubbish and should be viewed with the same suspicion as any other commercial drug that claimed the same.

There is also still the issue of conflating "decriminalising" with "approving", or even "encouraging". There is no doubt about the association of marijuana use and mental health problems (including self-medication) and the effects of extremely potent marijuana (everything available is basically 'skunk', as those of us of a few more decades knew it) on the developing brain are concerning. 

So whilst I agree that CBD has a useful role in relief of pain particularly in some people, we also have responsibilities to ensure it is used for the right reasons by the people who need it, not that it becomes all pervasive in society causing harm as much as benefit.

It's not an area doctors talk about much publicly because there are some absolute nutjobs out there who take any note of caution as proof of conspiracy and an attack on their right to get stoned. As usual social media can get very unpleasant when anyone pops their head over the parapet....

Meanwhile, I hope you get some relief from your arthritis, however you find it.

b

I have been trying CBD oil casuals from Holland & Barret. 1 a day for 60 days, I  slept better (not waking up at various points of the night thinking about work) and a good reduction in pain in my right foot and my right hip. It didn't do anything for my ankle pain in my left ankle and nothing for my back pain either. My wife commented that I was far less irritable and bad tempered when I was taking them but that might be because my pain was reduced and I was sleeping better. 

I puropsly let them run out and 2 weeks later I'm back to not sleeping very well and my foot and hip pain is back in a big way, I pick up my new batch tomorrow.

They may be a placebo but I'm good with a placebo if it works. 

Sounds like a sensible experiment with a useful outcome for you. 

In general drugs are licensed for a specific condition, in which they hopefully have been proved effective in well designed studies - preferably in comparison to placebo. In CBD there is some evidence in some conditions in some people. It certainly sounds like you may be one of them! 

My worry is that rather than CBD usage, there may be a trend towards much more widespread marijuana use (with potentially worse side effects, as with any drug) for everything from chilblains to (any) cancer in a completely chaotic manner. Of course this still happens now, but previously it’s not been accepted by mainstream society. 

b

one of the issue with the illegality of pot is that it has lead directly to Spice (which it is often conflated with as news people like to use the term "synthetic cannabis"). Its illegality also means that those just looking for a bit of pot have to buy it from people selling much nastier stuff

cannabis of course has its harmful effects and shouldn't be encouraged, arguably though it is less harmful both individually and to society than other drugs we deal with by regulation and taxation (alcohol/tobacco).

Yep agree to that. 

I think we have less knowledge about the natural history of cannabis use especially in adolescents. There’s clearly an increase in mental health issues in US states that have decriminalised, although obviously confounded by migration etc. And it doesn’t take long to recognise adverse effects e.g. take a ride on the bus in downtown Denver...

Overall my opinion is that there are a number of positives about CBD use, but we need to take care about knock-on effects to society as a whole. 

Cheers

b

When you stop taking the crap Holland & Barrett stuff and get with the top quality Dutch CBD oil that is freely and legally available online, as well as in independent stores, you’ll be even happier. What a difference it’s made to my osteoarthritis.

People are still worried about  cannabis as a gateway drug to  harder drugs. Far more people die from alcohol addiction. I am seeing the ravages of alcohol killing  old friends and acquaintances.

It’d take the edge off the current Brexit angst. Imagine Theresa May sharing a Camberwell Carrot with Jeremy. The whole thing would be sorted in no time. 

Can you recommend a brand ? I looked online and the amount of people selling it is bewildering and I'm sure it ranges from brilliant to very expensive olive oil. I went with H&B because they couldn't afford the scandal of passing off counterfeit products. 

A bit of a random question, for anyone in the know, how would CBD affect drug and alcohol screening? Would it show a positive for cannabis use?

Interesting question and I'd be interested to know if it would show on the roadside drug driving tests too. I expect not as it would be a fairly straightforward legal defence to get out of a drug driving conviction and would surely have been tried in court by now. I'm curious to start smoking weed again but I cannot handle green anymore. It's just too much when it's not mixed with tobacco which I obviously have no intention of doing again. I've been looking at vape pens and various concentrates that are really high in CBD (but have a fair of THC as well). Pricey stuff though. 

thats easily dealt with - cigarettes are marked appropriately 'smoking kills' and my bottle of Penderyn whisky presents advice for daily dose ...

No the screening is specifically for THC (a derivative in blood and urine, straight in the mouth swabs). I notice there are separate test kits for cbd but lord knows why.

I was in Denver not that long ago and didn't see anything bad. We also discussed the issue with someone who worked in government and he didn't mention any significant downsides to legalisation in Colorado.

Are you sure you're not just repeating exaggerations from the anti drugs lobby?

Nope. I spent a week there (happily, just around the corner from REI!) and so saw a lot of very strung out or stoned people. Walking down the Cherry Creek Trail in the morning was quite an eye opener.

The number of mentally ill homeless people was amazing. At any one time about half the passengers on the free downtown bus service were homeless people keeping out the cold. This was 2015 so maybe Trump has managed to sort out all the problems (well maybe). Obviously there are a lot of recreational drugs available so this isn’t a cannabis problem in isolation.

Discussions with colleagues from Colorado left little doubt about their perspectives. 

B

I should qualify that it was still much better than downtown LA.

I hadn’t really ever thought about Skid Row as being an actual, literal place until going there. 

B

A couple of pro rugby players from saracens (George kruis) have started a company selling it as it’s helped their various injuries no end. They had everything okayed by world rugby. If pro sportspeople are allowed to take it, I think it’s fine. 

Is it a homelessness problem or a drug problem? Do you believe that the availability of the drugs is causing the homelessness and mental health issues, or that the homelessness is causing the problematic drug use? 

I think the key arguments for full legalisation (not decriminalisation, not prescription) of cannabis and possibly some other drugs, and the ones your man on the video describes,  are;

Taking huge amounts of money out of the hands of violent criminals, reducing police time spent on investigating this crime, greater control on the product being sold (lower strength or cleaner), reduced demand for alternative drugs and a greater opportunity to treat drug misuse as a medical issue.

I think the use of cannabis medicinally is a separate issue. I have no issue with its use medicinally and think it may well have some benefits, but I am amused that a lot of people who recommend it are the same people who generally castigate other alternative medicines.

I'm almost certain the illegal variety will have the same effect.

How did you know they were mentally ill? 

Quite.

One of the biggest disasters that can befall you in the US is to be poor and suffer from mental health issues. It's a very expensive problem to have and if you can't afford treatment you end up sleeping under bridges.

The high numbers of vagrants in US cities is due to the lack of a welfare state and people end up in that condition as a result of a host of different misfortunes.

Do you see many vagrants in Amsterdam, Utrecht or Eindhoven where access to cannabis is just as easy?

No.

Tonic. Talk to Kate or Michelle and they’ll recommend exactly the right concentration from a large range 

 https://www.thetonictribe.com/

Thank you good sir. 

Cognitive liberty anyone? 

Totally agree - really tricky to tease out cause and effect with substance use and mental health, and the lack of even basic mental health care in the US is an absolute disgrace. 

The main problem in Amsterdam is the behaviour of tourists on stag weekends etc - having stayed there with work for a while with colleagues who live there, they aren't all delighted about the secondary effects of a liberal drug policy. But in terms of care for homeless and mentally ill patients (there is a big overlap) then Holland is far more enlightened than most countries.

b

My work brings me in to contact with mentally ill people on a fairly frequent basis (most weeks), so I'm reasonably able to pick up on obvious signs of mental illness. As I guess you imply, that doesn't mean that all mental illness is obvious - far from it - but when a majority of people in a group display overt signs of mental illness I'm happy to say "there's a lot of it about"!

cheers

b

They're secondary effects that are dependent on surrounding countries having *illiberal* drugs policies, not effects that go along with liberal policies themselves. 

Agreed, but I suspect unwise to think all countries will adopt a liberal policy any time soon (see also alcohol, chewing gum etc). Not that we shouldn’t try!

b

The question is, *on balance* what is the best policy, in terms of reducing the amount of suffering in people's lives (all people being granted equal value). I don't believe that prohibition can be justified in these terms and for that reason I oppose it. 

I've noticed that among friends of mine who don't have any mental health issues like paranoia or anxiety, or delusions and what have you, which can be associated with cannabis use in some people who eat or smoke it, they generally seem to be relatively low(er) in things having drive and being dynamic, or 'setting too' as my Mum might have put it. 

Which fits the stereotype of the chilled out hippy, but I vaguely wonder about what untapped potential they might explore if they were less content to potter along as it were. 

It was a common drug among friends during my teens and 20's, and I got to see how it can affect different people differently, there's quite a range of responses to it.

Absolutely. The "Holy Grail" of medicine currently is personalising treatments based on likely response rather than a "one size fits all" approach. Something like erlotinib is very helpful for some people with lung cancer, while others with (what iappears to be the same disease) sadly die sooner with no benefit. The factor that predicts response is a genetic mutation in the cancer (EGFR), which can be tested for - allowing targeted treatment and avoiding risk of side effects in those who would get no benefit anyway. 

That's why I worry about potential widespread use of (non-medicinal) cannabis for pretty much anything - although it's good to see  a lot of people have a sensible approach to risk:benefit (as per a lot of the thoughtful responses in this thread). Maybe that's a climbing thing. A lot of people will potentially get significant benefit, but others may get harm, and it's hard to predict whom because we just don't know what the markers of potential good or harm are. 

Just to clarify, I'm not against use of CBD, but I do have reservations about what will likely be a fairly marked concurrent shift in attitudes to recreational cannabis use, which may cause harm as well. It seems important to distinguish between use of CBD to relieve particularly chronic pain, and a trend to use of cannabis "because it's legal" and therefore safe or innocuous.

cheers

b

Well, just wait until the Canadian experiment has been in full swing for a couple of years and then we'll have some answers.

Do they still use "Doctor" Gillian McKeith in their adverts and promotional material?

Or to use her full title, Gillian McKeith

That line courtesy of Charlie Brooker, IIRC

cheers

b

Is that because far more people drink than do cannabis? You'd have to work on percentages rather than totals to know if it's better or worse.

How about Spacecakes?

Nah edibles are different to getting stoned the conventional way, at least to me. Especially when they are strong. You can get these little strips you put on your tongue in the states. A single one is heavy going. And jolly ranchers. Tho didn't try them. A mate did once eat 3 grams of Nepalese hash he had in his pocket in an airport, forgot it was there and had to get rid. Rather than waste it he actually eat the whole lot. It was messy. Crazy bastard. 

I think most studies now show that Cannabis is not a gateway drug.

http://reset.me/story/the-science-is-clear-marijuana-is-not-a-gateway-drug/

The whole term gateway drug is bloody ludicrous anyway. Using the logic of it you can come up with all sorts of rediculous shit. 

An area of risk with CBD which I don't think you've mentioned is the problem of pre-existing medical conditions and interactions with other medication. It's hard to find good information on this but for example I found that amongst the possible side effects was lowering of blood pressure, which would be of interest to anyone suffering from this, or taking medication for high blood pressure. And obviously anyone taking psychiatric drugs would need to be careful. As ever, consulting a medical practitioner would be sensible in these kinds of case. Although my GP was pretty negative about the whole idea...

The danger is in setting that bar too high.  I have friends who don't suffer from hayfever but who use the sedative effect of hayfever tablets as a sleep aid.  That seems perfectly legit so I'd hope someone who wants to smoke a joint to relax at the end of the day is considered equally legit. 

Imposing restrictions on account of some very difficult to define grounds of "harm" risks perpetuating an illegal market, continued criminalisation of users and denying people what should be a fundamental right to influence their own consciousness in a way that they see fit.

Not entirely a scientific survey, but I recently passed two piss tests after using this (two drops a day for several weeks): https://provacan.co.uk/products/provacan-cbd-oil-1200mg-sos-hemp-cbd-extrac....  That said, based on the experience of a friend-of-a-friend it is exceptionally easy to pass standard urine tests anyway.

I was slightly concerned prior to the test as, despite not containing THC, it isn't entirely clear if some tests will detect CBD.  I believe most look for "THC metabolites" so you should be fine.

I believe the Portuguese experiment has been in full swing for at least a decade and already given us all the answers we need.

I thought Lemmy came out with something truthful about this, which was that one drug 'can' lead onto a stronger one, but simply because one is more likely to meet (other) people who are doing other drugs, once having started using whatever drug it is.

It's a social phenomenon rather than a chemical one, in my case it rings very true for my teenage years.

The best a drugs advice might be 'If you're going to take drugs - don't meet anybody'.

youtube.com/watch?v=fh-pAykfQ-8&

Here you go.

From what I have seen in a past life weed can certainly be a gateway drug but this is mainly caused by the dealer. I know quite a few people (or knew) who were given free samples of Coke by their weed dealers.

I think you need to find something real to worry about like the drunks that smash up your car for no reason , or the wives that get beaten every night or the little old lady that finds her bus stop smashed to pieces every Sunday morning ! 

At the end of the day , making a plant that grows around the world abundantly and has been used for medicine and recreation fof thousands of years illegal is stupid. Harmful or not ,it should be a personal choice . You could fall off climbing and hurt your self quite easily.

Are you suggesting we should legalise opium too then? I'm keen myself but not sure it'll go so well in general. 

I suspect if junkies could grow their own the health issues associated with heroin use would diminish.

Gardening is hard work and takes time and skill. Even it were legal to grow and produce your own opiates I'm fairly sure junkies still wouldn't. May as well just give it them for free though, it's cheap enough to import from Afghanistan. 

Yes , all drugs should be legal and people educated  properly about them . Drug addiction is  a health issue  and should  not crime . We have been led to believe  all drugs are equally bad . Young Billy has a puff on the old wacky backy , and thinks that was not dangerous , and then at a party tries a bit of smack when hes pissed  as thats prolly ok too..... maybe he never tries it again , maybe he dies of gangerine from missing a vein 2 years later? 

If all drugs were regulated and out in the open  like baccy and  booze...LOL at least crime would be removed from the supply aspect and purity , false labeling etc would not cause problems.

Many people drive wrecklessly ,but cars are not banned . 

Drugs been illegal is a lost war that costs millions that could other wise be spent on  help services for people with a drug problem. Illegality is what causes problems like Spice .

Sure weed is a "gateway" drug and sure it leads on to harder stuff like MDMA, pills, coke etc but so what??

A few years ago when i was in my early 20's coke was about as common as packet of fags, it was everywhere, every night out a good portion of the people around where taking it - recreationally. Me and my group of friends have all moved on since without any problems, the younger lot taking our place. I went out over xmas and it was still the same, drippy noses and swinging jaws everywhere. All these lads, (some lasses) all come from decent families and all hold down jobs, just having a good time.

I don't see this as anymore a problem than what i was doing, drinking beer till i felt queasy and most probably talking rubbish - choose your poison. My dad staunchly disagrees, but can't give me a reason why, must be a generational thing.

Out of all the people i was friends with, and everyone i knew who partook in the messy weekend approach to life i never met a coke addict or a pill addict, or even heard of it ever happening, not saying it doesn't, it just seems a rarity. 

Heroin and crack on the other hand is a different story, most people know this is serious stuff and cant be used recreationally, these drugs seemed to be confined to deprived inner city areas, I've no idea why that is and with all my years of weekend partying i have never seen either which disrupts the continuity of the gateway theory IMO.

I can see your point, up to a point. The problem with drugs like cocaine is not so much the health effects, which like alcohol shouldn't be ignored, but the illegality. The supply chain for cocaine is a horrendous nightmare of environmental and human damage. Legalisation would make it possible to minimise this. 

Well perhaps if you'd had to spend a night in Resusc with a child who nearly died of MDMA after starting on "weed" with a group of supposed friends You might think differently

Is it any different than an 18yo being in the same position after necking a load of vodka? Ive seen that happen to others and been there myself also - although not quite as bad.

Ive never been in that situation or witnessed it so i apologise if i struck a cord.

he isn't even 18 and he came out with all that stuff over the last couple of years about one thing not leading to another.  Apology accepted, yes it is a bit raw

I would edit the "so what" bit as it is rather flippant, but it won't let me.

I was being my typical self, broadly applying my experiences which isnt really useful. 

Hope he's now doing well Wercat, tbh MDMA does seem to be more prone to that sort of thing, i have limited experience of it in fairness and was referring to cocaine.

No one's denying that drugs can cause harm. The question here is...what exactly?

Is weed a 'gateway drug'? I think it's a pointless expression. They're both psychoactive drugs, and weed is "softer" because it has milder physical effects and can be taken much more regularly without much going wrong. For this reason, people who are interested in taking drugs are likely to try weed before other drugs like stimulants and psychedelics. But to draw a causal link between weed use and MDMA is completely unjustified. It's a case of third variable causality (or whatever the right term is) - the weed use and the MDMA use are caused by a common factor, that is, the person's desire to get high.

Is MDMA bad? Well it is if you're one of the very few people who suffer bad acute effects and nearly die (or die). But that's the case with anything that has some risk attached, which is almost everything. It's also bad if you develop problematic use. But it's good if you have a great time, make loads of friends, etc, through using it. The important question for the individual is, do the risks and benefits stack up favourably (and what can I do to make them stack up)? And if we lived in a world that made sense, the questions for policy would be similar - but there's no reason behind our drug policy, it's just tradition.

Edit - I didn't read your post as you having the experience with your own son or daughter, so sorry if the tone seems wrong. Hope he's well now.

^This. I don't really care what pharmaceuticals people want to use, but the wilful blindness to the atrocities carried out by the drug cartels is astonishing. 

I also think the idea of legalisation is somewhat simplistic and naive. If we want to take over the cocaine trade, we'd better be prepared to use the sort of firepower needed to defeat daesh and with a similar level of collateral damage.

I'm not sure it's astonishing. Cocaine is a bit like prostitution - it taps into such a basic "want" in people that no matter what the rational for-and-against arguments for purchasing the product are, they're going to be overridden by the deep/primitive brain saying it wants its reward pathways activated. For this reason, it seems dumb to try to legislate against, rather than manage, the inevitable. 

God knows what the best solution is - I suspect it would probably require some kind of negotiation with the cartels, which isn't a very appealing prospect from the point of view of fairness and "just deserts". That said, the unappealing nature of such an approach does not mean that the current situation should be left as it is, continuing to destroy lives at a rate of knots. We can sit here and hope that everyone does the right thing and stops taking cocaine tomorrow and that the trade in human misery ends without any policy intervention, but I don't think that's going to fly as a solution. Even if governments managed to get control of the supply, they're then faced with the problem of trying to manage the harm the drug can do to their populations (it being a very strange drug that wreaks havoc if you get it into your brain fast via crack, but is nothing more than a pleasant pick-me-up if it goes in slowly by chewing the leaves). A very difficult problem, but one to which there must ultimately be an optimal solution. And I am absolutely certain that the current policy adopted by governments the world over is about a million miles away.

Would it alleviate your need to keep posting links? in which case I'll write to my MP and make your case!

Good post. I think, as you say, it might well be a case of legitimising the current cartels, (quite how that will pan out with governments in South America I don't know).

It's far more complex than the “Why don't we just legalise drugs” argument.

Don't worry - actually I got the age wrong - he's almost 17, technically.  It has been a very timely warning, probably nothing could have persuaded him more to be careful in future so that is a positive!

Yes, understand the points but for this group it seems that the perceived harmlessness of "weed" set the context in which he was persuaded (I'm guessing) partly by peer pressure, partly by curiosity and possibly partly by it being a rebel act, to experiment with other stuff in a very unsafe context (hence a phone call in the small hours from someone in the house).   It's come out that some of the outliers in the circle may have tried LSD as well, so I'm relieved he's had an early warning.

Just because you legalise some drugs like cannabis or ecstasy (which are largely grown or developed in Europe) doesn’t mean you have to legalise them all.

cocaine causes significant damage to the heart, and is implicated in a lot of heart attacks in young people. But even if we chose to legalise, we already have a well established legal supply chain with almost none of the attendant crime problems -https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/vbxqy9/today-i-learned-the-uk-is-the-wor...