UKC

Just an observation, but why would you want to ruin your own neighbourhood? I don't understand why these *poor unemployed disillusioned youths of today with little hope of a better future* didn't set fire to the banks in the city, or the posh areas?

In reply to Blizzard: Most of the people involved in these "riots" can't count to 10, the logic of shitting where you eat probably hasn't occurred to them yet.

In reply to Blizzard:

Too thick?

In reply to Styx:

They never worked for anything they bought.

Regards

D

In reply to Blizzard:

are they trashing their own neighbourhoods?
although would you want to lug a couple of 50in plasma tvs halfway across london?

In reply to Blizzard: too thick?
oh dear, this thread isn't getting off to a good start..

In reply to subalpine:

Is it too much to ask for a meaningful social commentary on the state of the nation.

The word thick was used, I thought it, didn't say it. Most people are struggling right now, the government is putting us all through more pain, yet I'm not out there having a paddy wack like this lot. I understand their frustration. Three points
1) This all long over due
2) What is the good is burning down Miss Selfridges? (What harm have they done to anyone? LOL)
3) What is stopping you from joining in? ( is that as daft as it sounds?)

In reply to subalpine: Dont you think these people have brought this derision upon themselves? Dont you think that first and foremost the rule of law should be established again?

Why are you acting as apologists for criminals?

In reply to Blizzard:

The majority of targets have been corporate targets. There also seems to be many that are travelling around quite a bit.

In reply to stp:


by corporate you mean any place likely to have valuable gear whether currys or a independent jewellers plus anywhere with alcohol.
A slightly unusual definition.

In reply to stp: But only corporate targets that have material goods they can take,to ease the pain of the injustice and suffering that they have all felt........


They are just thieves, plain and simple

In reply to stp: Watching the news tonight the Party Shop was targeted. No mention of corporate targets. Not that that would make it ok.

In reply to stp:

Are you really that deluded? Do you actually believe this is some sort of political uprising?

In reply to Blizzard:


It was predicted years, even decades, ago.



http://i.imgur.com/3gWOB.png


3) What is stopping you from joining in? ( is that as daft as it sounds?)

Personally I have not been affected by the cuts nor have I been a victim of excessive police powers. As far as I can tell these two things are what people are most angry about.

In reply to stp: There is no excuse for this and non of them are your fellow anarchists in arms. Unless that is your fellow Mayday protesters are thieves and arsonists too?

In reply to Ridge:


Well depends how you define political. I don't think most involved go home at night to read about revolutionary politics. But that doesn't mean it's not political in a broader sense of the word.

In reply to The Outlaw Josey Wales:

Don't know about an excuse but there's definitely a reason for what is happening and why it's happening. And it's connected to what is going on elsewhere in the world.

In reply to Blizzard: imagine if this had been spain.the police batons would need replacing by now from the skulls cracked

In reply to Blizzard: The Party Shop has/had big windows and disguises; i don't remember it having shutters. offlicences, electricals shops are obvious targets for their goods, anywhere with a big window, corner position is a tempting target.

In reply to stp:


ah any chance you can point me at the relevant definition? I keep finding my way to looting thieving chancers instead in the dictionary.

In reply to stp: Are you watching the news in some sort of parallel universe? Where is the political angle? unless its a result of years of lack of discipline in schools and family life? Who is responsible for that?
Grow up open your eyes and see this for what it really is, a bunch of thick (its not cool to go to school) feral scrotes nicking tellys and burning stuff. Not some maoist uprising!

In reply to Blizzard: and if you walk past somewhere everyday & see something in the window & think, 'oo, that's nice' and you suddenly have 'the opportunity'.
Equally, you know where your escape routes are in your own borough. Lazy as well as stupid!?!?

In reply to butteredfrog: stp is a self confessed anarchist/mayday protester and is trying to claim that these theives and arsonists are somehow his brothers in arms.

In reply to dissonance:

Well it's a response to what is going on politically. It's a response to the cuts the Tories are making and the behaviour of the police. To me I see that as political but just not in an articulate or intellectual way. It's not clearly not just about looting and stealing like much of the media is trying to portray it as. If that was the goal then straightforward shoplifting would be a far better and much safer option.

In reply to stp:

Ah! A fellow Kaiser Chiefs fan!

In reply to Blizzard: mainly because they all have the IQ of a ham sandwich!

In reply to stp:

quick response then to the tory cuts even pre-emptive.


nah i really doubt they are your allies.


i will admit to not really being an expert on shoplifting technique but i have my doubts about anyones ability to hide a 50in tv under their jacket without looking a tad suspicious.

In reply to butteredfrog:


Good question. What I notice from the news is that almost all of the narrative is coming from people not involved. There's a very clear agenda to show one side of the story.

It's really hard to find anything from the rioters themselves. But when you do hear something they're pretty clear about the motivations. It's cuts, hopelessness and over the top policing. And the murder of Mark Duggan was the spark that lit up the discontent that has been brewing for some time.

In reply to Blizzard:

"Why would you want to ruin your own neighbourhood?"

I think it's because they do not feel they are a part of their own community...

In reply to Ridge:


Ah! A fellow Kaiser Chiefs fan!

I seem to remember it being discussed on the very forum in 2008 as I remember.

In reply to stp:

I listened to the radio and there was one poor guy crying that his business of 10 years was wiped in one fowl swoop. That's anything but corporate. Any explanation why it is spreading to other cities? Do you think the organization or lack of it through that wonderful millennium medium, fartbook?

Sorry for all the questions folks, I simply cant help thinking what its really all about. *Simple kicks* maybe.

In reply to stp:


sorry whats the other side? Are they looting shops but then popping down to the local animal sanctuary to feed the dogs?


well yes while many seem a tad thick with their relaxed approach to covering their faces and boasting on social media even the dumbest will probably think giving press interviews might lead to a follow up interview with the cops.

here you go though for sophisticated political thought.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14458424

In reply to stp:

I really want to reply.........but find i cant!!

The Ramones had it right.,.......

In reply to Blizzard:



I didn't know they had chicken farms in Tottenham!

In reply to barnaby:

Hey Ho, let's go?
I wanna be sedated?
Baby, I love you?
Mixed messages, man!

In reply to dissonance:


This is the biggest news story of the day and yet there is no attempt to talk to them (almost no attempt). I assumed that this was because they wouldn't want to talk to journalists. But then on the World Service this morning it turned out that was not the case. The BBC guy reporting from somewhere in London said there was no shortage of people who wanted to say why they were doing what they were doing. He said there was a variety of reasons but the one he mentioned was the cuts.

And from a completely different perspective the economist Joe Stiglitz was interviewed on C4 news. He was asked if he thought there was link to the riots and the government cuts. His reply was: Very much so.

In terms of was it political I just found this quote which says it better than I have:

"Just because rioters do not express overtly political aims does not mean the riots aren't political in origin. How else can disenfranchised, un-politicised youth make their voices heard by the bourgeois middle and ruling classes?"

In reply to Blizzard:
'Politics' to me is not just tory, labour, fascist, marxist, anarchist, communist, it's the actions, feelings and progressions of society.
In that respct, it is political.

STP is trying to widen the discussion; what has made the rioters think they can do this? why in their own manors? what do they think the consequences are? what would stop them doing it next time?. People are not just 'born bad'.

In reply to Blizzard:

Chuck them in a pit and cover them in Lime

In reply to thin bob: why cant it be a reaction to the police/Duggan incident that been blown into a demonstartion against the police and then the mob mentality has taken over?

Lastly there is no excuse for criminality and criminals should be dealt with by the law. This doesnt of course mean that the reasons why we got to this point arent addressed in the future.

In reply to Blizzard:
None of this would have happened if it was totally pissing down with rain all day and night. They would suddenly lose all their political motivation and stay in bed.
It's August, shit happens.

In reply to Blizzard:

Interesting interview with a Bristol journalist for US TV...

"340 people have died in Police custody over the past 12 years, - about 1 per month - mostly of ethnic minorities, and not one of these deaths has ever resulted in a conviction of a police officer"


Also likens the riots to anti-IMF type riots. Worth a look, definitely a bit different to what's on our TV.

http://rt.com/news/london-police-riots-leadership/

In reply to Moley:


Yeah apparently that's right. All riots depend on good weather. Imagine if Britain was not a hot, dry country.

In reply to The Outlaw Josey Wales: it could well be as you say. Whatever the root cause, there;'s the 'complicating' factor of a lot of theivery which might bot have been present before?

In reply to The Outlaw Josey Wales:

Agreed but only if its the same for everyone.

In reply to stp:

Surpsingly, it does affect public mood. I suspect it is the drink that fuels it.

when I was a fascist pig dog intent on stamping on the under privileged and repressing the individual we used to call it PC Piss.

In reply to stp:

Congratulations to INQUEST and similar organisations. Now we can get misquoted and misunderstood bullsh1t quoted as fact.
Whoop-de-doo down with the man. Up with the people.

Who's going to pay their benefits when no bugger is left with a job.

In reply to butteredfrog:

Sorry old bean but its you that needs to open your eyes, the political angle you fail to see is the one where a huge swaith of society has been left behind and have grown up with a f-you attitude because of it, you reap what you sow eh.

In reply to stp:
Your chances of dying in police custody in the uk are roughly the same as your chances of suffering a fatal rock climbing accident. I can't be bothered to google it but there are some interesting summary statistics available if you like numbers. Given the proportion of those people that are high/drunk or have undiagnosed medical conditions and the fact that you are in a fairly stressful situation I'd say it reflects fairly well on the police.

In reply to Blizzard:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14458424

This is probably the best example of why the rioters shat in their backyard. It's in order to show the rich that they can do whatever they want.

The two girls have to collaborate a bit to confirm that we do in fact have a Conservative - "whatevah, who it is, I dunno" - government, because they've possibly only voted in X-Factor elections at their age, and possibly that's the only vote they will ever make use of, or care about...

They think the riot "was madness, it was good fun, course it was" and that setting fire to and wrecking their own neighbourhood is a cunning plan to better their lives and make the place they live in a better place, with greater opportunities, and how they can use the learning they picked up at school (if they even bothered to attend) will take them further and higher...


Quite depressing really. I suspect the "rich" will be quaking in their boots (with laughter) at how clueless some of the rioters are.

Other examples is a woman using her facebook account to attempt to incite a riot in Wakefield, she's now been arrested and "charged under the Serious Offences Act, 2007". I bet she was surprised when the police turned up at her door and arrested her. I'm surprised she's intelligent enough to work out how to switch a computer on, 'cos she seems to be too dim to work out the consequences of her actions...

anyway...



||-)

In reply to stp:

I don't think this is a response to anything other than "look, we can go out and smash stuff up burn buildings and nick stuff, what fun we'll have."
A lot of these people really are too thick to understand what they're doing is wrong and i honestly think the only place to lay blame is the crap parenting that a lot of them will have had, not the goverment or police.

In reply to Dirk Didler:

A huge swathe of society has been royally f*cked by people like you.

They are the victims of an education system that sets no standards , a culture that exempts people from personal responsibility either for their behaviour or their welfare, has rejected the simple concept that making an attempt to have some sort of stable family and responsibility for them may be quite helpful for the children of it, and had rejected the idea that some sort of simple moral values might actually help people live productive and rewarding lives.

They are victims but not of the people or the ideas that you think.

In reply to Postmanpat:


Not surprising - people like him, for all the self-admiring claim to the perpetual ownership of the moral high ground, are really not very pleasant.

Before the riots, there was considerable Guardianista gloating over the Tory party member who died at Glastonbury, no matter that a family had suddenly lost its father, "when Tory blood flows from the knife, things go twice as well" (something like that anyhow). That was of course preceded by wild gloating when the Tory party HQ was attacked, though of course a deliberate attack on the headquarters of an opposing political party is a quintesentially Fascist act. A similar vein of vicious sneering was apparent for the polar-bear attack on the group of boys, because the fatal casualty was an Eton pupil (no matter that he wanted to go into medicine and was universally well spoken of), obviously the fact that he was a pupil at Eton meant any viciousness was permitted, indeed meritorious.

As for the Guardianista vicarious hard-ons when the rioting started, that was something astounding, as was the endless stream of apologists for violence (articles invariably starting with "I don't justify violence, but ...").

Now that 3 asian men have been apparently murdered, also general public disgust at the thugs, Guardian enthusiasm for these "freedom-fighters" seems to have waned somewhat.

"Moral high ground" ??? Invert by 180 degrees.

In reply to Simon4:

so what did the Guardian do to you? Did they turn you down for a job or something?

ps i am rather disappointed you didnt get in an irrational rant at the beeb as well.

In reply to dissonance:

Agreed. Take less of a shortcut, Simon.

In reply to Simon4: You'll remember Brixton, etc. What lessons have we learnt since then?

In reply to Postmanpat:

Think you,ve got the wrong end of the stick, i'm one of those that does give a f#ck, but incase i'm wrong you could explain.

In reply to thin bob:

Good lessons: that an over aggressive racist police force ferments resentment and trouble and the police need to work with not against the community

Several bad lessons: eg. that the police should treat ethnic minorities differently from others and accept some levels of criminality. That every arrest or caution (of all races) has to accompanied by a degree of paperwork and bureaucracy that makes policing impossible.

In reply to thin bob:

That blaming the problem entirely on other peoples racism is wrong and has clearly achieved nothing?

In reply to Postmanpat:

Thank god for Operation Trident. A community supported multi-agency operation to address the serious problem of "black on black" gun crime and murders.

Oh, hang on a minute.

In reply to Dirk Didler:

That it needs explaining says a lot in itself. What do you mean "I'm one of those that does give a f*ck" as if millions of people from the richest hedge fund manager, politicians, the local plumber and the guy who cleans the bogs don't "give a f*ck".
There are lots of reasons to "give a f*ck" Firstly because it's simply wrong for people to live such crap lives and secondly that everyone else is paying for it in terms of both money and quality of life.

The point is that "giving a f*ck" is not synonymous with endless amounts of money being spent on dealing with the symptoms of the problem-which has about as much use as giving turps to an alcoholic- and failing to address the poverty of ambition and spirit that is the core of the problem. Your pathetic bleating that it's the fault of the rich or whoever your hate group of the day is just misses the point.

The problem is that people like you have encouraged the financing of their lifestyles, justified their failure, expected no better of them and pointed the blame elsewhere.
You have actually condemned them and their children to a spiral of decline.

In reply to Blizzard: Thank you for the answers, it was a serious question.

In reply to Blizzard:

I'm with you

"the government is putting us all through more pain"? Are you serious? Let's be clear here, I didn't vote for the government we have, however, *anyone* who believes that some pain wasn't waaaay overdue is deluded. And. Get. This. The pain is down to our own creation. We have lived beyond our means for years. We appear to have brought up our kids to believe that the world owes them a living. The riots are an embodiment of our - my, your - failing as parents and adults, and our childrens' failing to do the hard work that brings rewards.

I cannot believe you think this. Are you truly implying that this is either inevitable or defensible?

I'm with you
To be honest, it doesn't take much to "stop me from joining in". I'm naive enough to think that "it's flagrantly wrong" is enough (and yes, I'm proud of my parents for teaching me that (parents, teaching, see where I'm at)). Beyond "It's wrong" I have to reach for "it's illegal" and, if you really push me "I quite like the shops not to be burned down". Enough for you???



Do you really think that there's so little between the general public and the rioters?

I so so so hope that you are wrong.

John

In reply to Blizzard:

I wonder why nothing seems to get sorted in this country until I see debates between right and left. Anyone else think that the vast majority of both sides genuinely want the best for everyone but just have different ideas about how to achieve it? Anyone else think that people of the other political persuasion aren't automatically evil, totally deluded, fascists, stalinists or bleeding heart liberals? No? Just me then.

For what it's worth, I find myself leaning to the left on most things but I could be wrong. Who knows what the solution is because we sure as sh!t haven't found it yet. All I think is that, whatever happens to the looters, we need to find the reasons behind it to stop it happening again. We, Britain, all of us, never seem to learn any lessons.

In reply to Blizzard: If (and it's a bloody big if) these riots are an expression of frustration against marginalisation, disenfranchisement, corrupt racist policing, poor community services, non non-existent job prospects, public sector cut backs, the increasing rich - poor divide, fat cat bankers etc etc?

Then why not take your rioting to the Houses of Parliament, Scotland Yard, Thread needle street and the Bank of England, and Canary Wharf?

Oh I forgot silly me, there are no shops to nick 60" Samsung Telly's and Nike Trainers from there, are there!

In reply to Postmanpat:

Because i do give a feck,hedge fund managers/politicians caring about the poorest of the poor..grow up,a plummer/cleaner maybe, who's talking about spending lots of money?, people like me encouraging there lifestyles/justifing there failure/expecting no better of them and condemmed them and there kids to a shite life.....i dont usually say to much about myself but for you i'll make an exception... i am one of those people...the very people your talking about, do you even know what its like to grow up with f*ck all, where your next meal is a bonus not a right...i dont and have never blamed anyone for not having much but it truley sickins me to read the shite that either the right wing bumholes on here spout out about vermin/scum kids that should look after themselves "cause we did" or the feckin head in the clouds liberal lefties that think everything will be all right with the aid of a feckin social worker and an art grant, the problem with folk like yourself is that you watched grangehill/smoked a joint and now your a feckin fountain of knowledge about how to sort out the world and its problems...well having lived a shite/wonderful/crazy/brilliant/compassionate life i realise i still know feck all apart from its better to offer a hand than a fist..to lay the blame where it belongs.

In reply to Dirk Didler:
feck all apart from its better to offer a hand than a fist..to lay the blame where it belongs.

Given what you say of your background I'll and your condemnation of the attitudes of the liberal left I'll retract some of my personal comments. But you still show a blinkered and ignorant view that because people don't agree with your way of caring, whatever that is, they don't care. Get off your moral high horse. And I make no claim to have easy answers. I'm pretty despondent about how you overturn the problems created by fifty years of crap policy.

Oh, and I suspect I've watched Grange Hill once in my life and if inner city schools were like that I'd be very relieved.

In reply to Blizzard:
well said, Dirk.

In reply to Blizzard:

Couldn't afford the bus fare?