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Hi all,
I'm just back from a trip to Geyikbayiri, Turkey - warmly recommended by the way, with further details here: http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=134
Over the years I've done a lot of outdoor climbing, and in the run up to this trip I trained a lot indoords and had a good sense of what grade I was onsighting (at Ratho, with its long stamina routes). The routes out there were obviously graded for a redpoint ascent and naturally an onsight outdoors is harder than an onsight indoors. I'd expected this difference, but I'd never before thought about how many grades difference it makes. Other people there, particularly people climbing in the lower grades, were saying that everything there felt 'hard', but I wonder if that's the case?
We're so used to big colourful projecting holds, pockets where the direction of the hole (undercut, sidepull etc) is obvious and footholds that you can see from above. There are few if any decoy holds indoors, so you can move confidently and dymanically through a planned sequence, onsight. I found myself wondering to what extent indoor climbing dulls our ability to onsight outdoors and give us a false sense of confidence and a sub-optimal style for outdoors. So much is different - the reading, the remembering of possible footholds, the pacing and the way in which you need to approach possible holds. Outdoors, there are many possibilities, and some of those holds will be rubbish, yet might still be covered in chalk. Move dynamically to one of those and you'll probably fall off...
So, I wondered, what sort of grade difference do people typically experience when moving from onsighting indoors to onsighting outdoors? To what extent can that gap be closed with practice and experience, or changes in climbing style? And should indoor grades or routes in some way better prepare us for climbing outdoors? Should there be more rubbish decoy holds on routes, for example? Or should the indoor grading system be changed to protect people's egos?!
I'd be interested in hearing other people's thoughts and experiences.
Ben
I'm just back from a trip to Geyikbayiri, Turkey - warmly recommended by the way, with further details here: http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=134
Over the years I've done a lot of outdoor climbing, and in the run up to this trip I trained a lot indoords and had a good sense of what grade I was onsighting (at Ratho, with its long stamina routes). The routes out there were obviously graded for a redpoint ascent and naturally an onsight outdoors is harder than an onsight indoors. I'd expected this difference, but I'd never before thought about how many grades difference it makes. Other people there, particularly people climbing in the lower grades, were saying that everything there felt 'hard', but I wonder if that's the case?
We're so used to big colourful projecting holds, pockets where the direction of the hole (undercut, sidepull etc) is obvious and footholds that you can see from above. There are few if any decoy holds indoors, so you can move confidently and dymanically through a planned sequence, onsight. I found myself wondering to what extent indoor climbing dulls our ability to onsight outdoors and give us a false sense of confidence and a sub-optimal style for outdoors. So much is different - the reading, the remembering of possible footholds, the pacing and the way in which you need to approach possible holds. Outdoors, there are many possibilities, and some of those holds will be rubbish, yet might still be covered in chalk. Move dynamically to one of those and you'll probably fall off...
So, I wondered, what sort of grade difference do people typically experience when moving from onsighting indoors to onsighting outdoors? To what extent can that gap be closed with practice and experience, or changes in climbing style? And should indoor grades or routes in some way better prepare us for climbing outdoors? Should there be more rubbish decoy holds on routes, for example? Or should the indoor grading system be changed to protect people's egos?!
I'd be interested in hearing other people's thoughts and experiences.
Ben
In reply to Ben Darvill: I was going to post about this the other day. I don't think there is really any need to actually work out a route or problem indoors, as you can see exactly where it goes and how your going to climb it. It would be cool if climbing was a bit more 'blind' indoors, I don't know how this would work though. On another note I can climb supposed v5/v6 indoors relatively easily, but outdoors I have to struggle all day for v4!
In reply to Ben Darvill: Grade for grade I find indoors harder than outdoors, quite significantly so in fact. I've been climbing a long time so I am used to outdoors and find that it allows me to make more use of skills that I do have such as good footwork and route finding. Indoors tends to be more stamina and strength. This is no bad thing for me because those are the things that I need to develop so I don't really pay too much attention to indoor grades. They are just a very rough guide by which I can measure progress.
Al
Al
2
In reply to Ben Darvill:
And as a follow up question, does climbing outdoors improve your indoor grade? We are all used to training indoors to gain the physical strength and stamina we think we need... but climbing outdoors forces you to read routes better, and to be more comfortable with bigger runouts. Coming back from just a week away, everything felt relatively easy indoors and the instinct to yelp 'take' when 3 inches above the bolt had all but gone!
Thoughts?
Ben
And as a follow up question, does climbing outdoors improve your indoor grade? We are all used to training indoors to gain the physical strength and stamina we think we need... but climbing outdoors forces you to read routes better, and to be more comfortable with bigger runouts. Coming back from just a week away, everything felt relatively easy indoors and the instinct to yelp 'take' when 3 inches above the bolt had all but gone!
Thoughts?
Ben
In reply to Ben Darvill:
In my experience, it depends.
Obviously the brightly coloured holds indoors tend to allow for easier route reading and easier onsights. However, indoor setters can give give slightly sandbag grades for the hold size to compensate for this so the same grade might be comparable indoord and out.
As someone who has climbed indoors far more than out, the main thing I notice when climbing outside is that my footwork/technique isn't up to the job. Even screw-on smears indoors are easy to spot and use compared to tiny nubbins on the rock or pure friction holds. Outside I find my calves and feet often get more tired. Indoors it's always forearms.
On the other hand, while my highest grade onsights are indoors, I'd say my reliable indoors sports grade for onsighting is the same as my personal bests outside.
On the whole I treat the climbing wall as a place for training for climbing, so don't tend to climb the same there as outside, but tend to focus on moving smoothly and building strength and stamina rather than 'ticking' the routes.
In my experience, it depends.
Obviously the brightly coloured holds indoors tend to allow for easier route reading and easier onsights. However, indoor setters can give give slightly sandbag grades for the hold size to compensate for this so the same grade might be comparable indoord and out.
As someone who has climbed indoors far more than out, the main thing I notice when climbing outside is that my footwork/technique isn't up to the job. Even screw-on smears indoors are easy to spot and use compared to tiny nubbins on the rock or pure friction holds. Outside I find my calves and feet often get more tired. Indoors it's always forearms.
On the other hand, while my highest grade onsights are indoors, I'd say my reliable indoors sports grade for onsighting is the same as my personal bests outside.
On the whole I treat the climbing wall as a place for training for climbing, so don't tend to climb the same there as outside, but tend to focus on moving smoothly and building strength and stamina rather than 'ticking' the routes.
1
In reply to Ben Darvill: indoors i can onsight 6b/c depending on the style and work 7a but outdoors onsight 5c but work 6a and some 6b. I climb regularly on Peak grit where it is technical and smeary and thats where i think my grade drop comes in you don't get that exposure and feel like if you breathe out you're going to slip off that pebble. moves outdoors are trial and mostly error for me whereas indoors you can see it all.
In reply to Ben Darvill:
i think a F4 indoors is much easier than a F4 outside. BUT i think a F7c indoors is harder than a F7c outdoors.
i think a F4 indoors is much easier than a F4 outside. BUT i think a F7c indoors is harder than a F7c outdoors.
In reply to JimmyKay:
As far as the Yorkshire walls are concerned, I agree. At the harder grades, you are more at the mercy of the route-setters' whims whereas outside there may well be alternative solutions that fits in your body type/reach/flexibility.
Carl
As far as the Yorkshire walls are concerned, I agree. At the harder grades, you are more at the mercy of the route-setters' whims whereas outside there may well be alternative solutions that fits in your body type/reach/flexibility.
Carl
In reply to Ben Darvill:
I climb similar both in and out - real rock is often harder to read and usually longer and requiring more technique whilst indoors is easy to read but often short and physical.
I climb similar both in and out - real rock is often harder to read and usually longer and requiring more technique whilst indoors is easy to read but often short and physical.
In reply to carl dawson:
Hi all,
Fair enough with this, and it's interesting to hear. I really ought to get on some 7c's outdoors then! A reminder though that my questions are particularly about onsighting rather than a grade difference per se... I'm sure you're right about intermediate holds etc for a redpoint ascent.
My feeling is that there is always likely to be a difference of some sort, but for some people that difference could be small, and others vast. People with lot of stamina and endurance, good route reading skills, a good head etc can likely overcome a lot of the outdoor 'challenges'. Others might find outdoor climbing such a challenge that equivalent grades feel impossible.
It's interesting that at least one person has said that they find outdoors easier. I onsighted a 7a in Turkey (roughly what I am onsighting indoors) and I remember thinking as I lowered off that, having found the good holds, the right sequences etc it had felt pretty easy. I'm pretty sure I could have lapped it several times, which is seldom/never the case for 7a indoors...
Ben
Hi all,
Fair enough with this, and it's interesting to hear. I really ought to get on some 7c's outdoors then! A reminder though that my questions are particularly about onsighting rather than a grade difference per se... I'm sure you're right about intermediate holds etc for a redpoint ascent.
My feeling is that there is always likely to be a difference of some sort, but for some people that difference could be small, and others vast. People with lot of stamina and endurance, good route reading skills, a good head etc can likely overcome a lot of the outdoor 'challenges'. Others might find outdoor climbing such a challenge that equivalent grades feel impossible.
It's interesting that at least one person has said that they find outdoors easier. I onsighted a 7a in Turkey (roughly what I am onsighting indoors) and I remember thinking as I lowered off that, having found the good holds, the right sequences etc it had felt pretty easy. I'm pretty sure I could have lapped it several times, which is seldom/never the case for 7a indoors...
Ben
In reply to Ben Darvill: i have alway found that I can tick harder routes outside than indoors. Routes indoors, espesially at ratho on there justice wall are stamina rigs. They help for big long sustained pitches outside, but not so much so on 10m Malham technical
testpeices. You could never class an indoor route as an onsight as all the holds are popping out at you. This can be said on well chalked obvious routes outside as well. For me the big difference is how people use their feet. Climbing wall on the whole breed sloppy footwork, as every hold is massive. All you have to do is watch those strong wall climber go on something not so steep for the first time outside and listern to them complain about the grade etc. As anything the more you do something the better you get. Climb outside more and you will quickly improve if you have the movement skills already, if your a thug on plastic your screwed until you learn how to use your feet.
testpeices. You could never class an indoor route as an onsight as all the holds are popping out at you. This can be said on well chalked obvious routes outside as well. For me the big difference is how people use their feet. Climbing wall on the whole breed sloppy footwork, as every hold is massive. All you have to do is watch those strong wall climber go on something not so steep for the first time outside and listern to them complain about the grade etc. As anything the more you do something the better you get. Climb outside more and you will quickly improve if you have the movement skills already, if your a thug on plastic your screwed until you learn how to use your feet.
1
In reply to Ben Darvill: I've climbed indoors far less than outdoors, and consequently better outdoors.
You become good, relatively speaking, at what you do.
You become good, relatively speaking, at what you do.
In reply to Ben Darvill:
Hi Ben, Glad you had a good time and that you won't be wimpering with a bolt above your waist at Ratho any longer!
I find that I can roughly onsight the same grades at Ratho and outside (on routes of the same style - ie longish, more than vertical stamina pitches), but that I can comfortably redpoint harder outside (not that I do this often). ie A Ratho 7b, say, is generally physically significantly harder than a similar style 7b ouside, but no harder to onsight because of the relative ease of reading bright pink holds. I can't speak for other indoor walls because I don't use them (why would I want to!). Anyway, indoors is just training, but obviously has its limitations for route reading, footwork etc.
Hi Ben, Glad you had a good time and that you won't be wimpering with a bolt above your waist at Ratho any longer!
I find that I can roughly onsight the same grades at Ratho and outside (on routes of the same style - ie longish, more than vertical stamina pitches), but that I can comfortably redpoint harder outside (not that I do this often). ie A Ratho 7b, say, is generally physically significantly harder than a similar style 7b ouside, but no harder to onsight because of the relative ease of reading bright pink holds. I can't speak for other indoor walls because I don't use them (why would I want to!). Anyway, indoors is just training, but obviously has its limitations for route reading, footwork etc.
In reply to Ben Darvill:
In response, I barely climb indoors unless visiting the uk. I find grades harder inside, usually fewer rests and more pumpy as they try to make use of the relatively low height of indoor walls. On the flip side I would say a decent outdoor climber would do better indoors than the other way round (more comfortable falling on close together bolts).
Although climbing indoors won't prepare you for some aspects of outdoor climbing, it's certainly better than nothing. You can maintain enurance, confidence in movement, improve power. It's a good compromise if you live far from outdoor venues or after work sessions. Good banter and comaraderie etc.
In response, I barely climb indoors unless visiting the uk. I find grades harder inside, usually fewer rests and more pumpy as they try to make use of the relatively low height of indoor walls. On the flip side I would say a decent outdoor climber would do better indoors than the other way round (more comfortable falling on close together bolts).
Although climbing indoors won't prepare you for some aspects of outdoor climbing, it's certainly better than nothing. You can maintain enurance, confidence in movement, improve power. It's a good compromise if you live far from outdoor venues or after work sessions. Good banter and comaraderie etc.
In reply to Ben Darvill: I find indoor routes generally have bigger, comfier holds than those of the alleged same grade outside. I also find relatively slabby indoor routes at 6b and beyond harder than their outdoor companions due to the indoor slime factor!
In reply to Ben Darvill:
Might be worth remembering that the average outdoor climb is probably twice as long as the typical indoor climb. Perhaps if only climbing half way up a similarly graded outdoor climb you might find the grades feel similar.
Might be worth remembering that the average outdoor climb is probably twice as long as the typical indoor climb. Perhaps if only climbing half way up a similarly graded outdoor climb you might find the grades feel similar.
In reply to sean0409:
I'm confused......
I assume that you are talking sports grades? Never seen a sport 5c outside.......normally just 5 or 5+.
Yet you say your grade drop is due to climbing on grit?
If your talking about trad 6b, then you should be higher than the E2 your profile says is your best worked trad grade.
> (In reply to Ben Darvill) indoors i can onsight 6b/c depending on the style and work 7a but outdoors onsight 5c but work 6a and some 6b. I climb regularly on Peak grit where it is technical and smeary and thats where i think my grade drop comes in......
I'm confused......
I assume that you are talking sports grades? Never seen a sport 5c outside.......normally just 5 or 5+.
Yet you say your grade drop is due to climbing on grit?
If your talking about trad 6b, then you should be higher than the E2 your profile says is your best worked trad grade.
In reply to Ben Darvill: my outdoor sport grade is the same as indoors,though i do find climbing outdoor the grades seem similar,though that may be because since im not climbing "pink" hold to pink,there are a lot more options...though i tend to only sport climb on limestone...
trad grade wise though,my fear overrules so my grade sucks!
trad grade wise though,my fear overrules so my grade sucks!
In reply to Ben Darvill:
In my opinion outdoor routes are 1 or 2 grades harder. I can do indoors 6b but when i return to rock 6a makes me sweat!
In my opinion outdoor routes are 1 or 2 grades harder. I can do indoors 6b but when i return to rock 6a makes me sweat!
In reply to Ben Darvill:
One thing to remember is that French sport grades are not on-sight grades. Hence much of the difference you might feel comes from indoor routes sometimes being much easier to on-sight than outdoor, as one can see the holds. In theory your red-point grade for both should be closer.
One thing to remember is that French sport grades are not on-sight grades. Hence much of the difference you might feel comes from indoor routes sometimes being much easier to on-sight than outdoor, as one can see the holds. In theory your red-point grade for both should be closer.
In reply to Ben Darvill:
Interesting Ben... I have found grades outdoors in most areas I have been much easier than most indoor walls (including ratho). I think that the routes indoors are always more physical for the grade. I think this happens because the route is so easily read and the footholds are all so obvious that decisions can be made quicker and to create a route of a certain difficulty indoors they need to make the physical level higher. This can backfire on climbers who pysically aren't that strong though technically they might be really good e.g. a really good outdoor climber with very little relative strength may fail indoors on the same grades that he/she usually climbs outdoors.
Of course when you have someone without much outdoor experience attemmpting to haul his/her way up an outdoor sport route using only the strength they've gained from climbing indoors, of ocurse they are going to find it harder.
I used to be the latter until I forced myself to develop the necessary skills to climb harder outdoors, and I am always learning new techniques. I discovered today the difference between an 8b slab and an 8b roof : P
Glad your enjoying the routes at ratho, I look forward to replicating some of the moves from my trip in the wall when I get back!
Interesting Ben... I have found grades outdoors in most areas I have been much easier than most indoor walls (including ratho). I think that the routes indoors are always more physical for the grade. I think this happens because the route is so easily read and the footholds are all so obvious that decisions can be made quicker and to create a route of a certain difficulty indoors they need to make the physical level higher. This can backfire on climbers who pysically aren't that strong though technically they might be really good e.g. a really good outdoor climber with very little relative strength may fail indoors on the same grades that he/she usually climbs outdoors.
Of course when you have someone without much outdoor experience attemmpting to haul his/her way up an outdoor sport route using only the strength they've gained from climbing indoors, of ocurse they are going to find it harder.
I used to be the latter until I forced myself to develop the necessary skills to climb harder outdoors, and I am always learning new techniques. I discovered today the difference between an 8b slab and an 8b roof : P
Glad your enjoying the routes at ratho, I look forward to replicating some of the moves from my trip in the wall when I get back!
In reply to Ben Darvill: hi, i personaly dont think you can onsight indoors... in the deffinition of an onsight im sure theres something about' no previous knowlege of the holds and there position' but in doors you can see them all and know what most of them are like. i know people who wont take the onsight of a route if theres too much chalk on the holds... not really relevent to your forum but what do u recon??
In reply to efrance24234:
I think they're very pedantic. You always know something about a route
> (In reply to Ben Darvill) hi, i personaly dont think you can onsight indoors... in the deffinition of an onsight im sure theres something about' no previous knowlege of the holds and there position' but in doors you can see them all and know what most of them are like. i know people who wont take the onsight of a route if theres too much chalk on the holds... not really relevent to your forum but what do u recon??
I think they're very pedantic. You always know something about a route
In reply to Robbie_Phillips:
Hi Robbie. You will have discovered that one is steeper than the other. I assume that you got totally spanked by the roof because you are so very weak. Have you pulled your finger out and done an 8c yet?
Excellent, get those bumbly routes off the slab and show us what an 8b slab is like then!
> (In reply to Ben Darvill)
> I discovered today the difference between an 8b slab and an 8b roof : P
Hi Robbie. You will have discovered that one is steeper than the other. I assume that you got totally spanked by the roof because you are so very weak. Have you pulled your finger out and done an 8c yet?
> I look forward to replicating some of the moves from my trip in the wall when I get back!
Excellent, get those bumbly routes off the slab and show us what an 8b slab is like then!
In reply to efrance24234:
That's why I don't like chalk, though it's a bit strong to stop me taking the onsight. I do enjoy the searching out of the holds.
> onsight of a route if theres too much chalk on the holds... not really relevent to your forum but what do u recon??
That's why I don't like chalk, though it's a bit strong to stop me taking the onsight. I do enjoy the searching out of the holds.
I find climbing outdoors a lot easier, infact i can confidently say that i'm probably a grade above or even two sometimes outdoor compare to my level indoors. Maybe started climbing outdoors is to my advantage but i do believe it's really all technique. There is so much more footholds outdoor compare to indoor. That tiny tiny tiny dip is really a great foothold outdoor where indoor you will need to use the wall but no tiny dips, toehooks, healhooks etc..
In reply to NorthernRock: My best worked grade at the time was an E3 5c. I have bouldered at 6c so can do the moves and I'm working on Small is beautiful E4 6c. I should update it really but haven't yet. I really don't get into the Peak as much as I need to to be grade chasing but when if its stays clear I will be bagging some harder routes this winter
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