UKC

Will this ever happen on any sort of scale? They are massively popular in the continent, not least amongst UK visitors, as a low-skill means of getting amongst steep terrain.

I know about the one at Honnister, but will there ever be a movement to create them in the mountains, or even on bigger crags? Who would advance this? There would be a fair amount of effort and expense involved.

Which locations do YOU think might be suitable? I can think of one or two steep and exposed areas of mountain that existing climbs and scrambles dont go near, but would be intersted to hear other's thought. I should stress that I'm NOT making a proposal nor supporting the idea, but the talk of bolting Broad Stand did get me thinking..

I certainly would not support the gentrification (equipping) of existing scrambles, but there is clearly somebody out there that does...

In reply to Jamie Bankhead: Do the treetop equivalent exist in the UK ? they seem to be becoming very popular in France, and you don't need a cliff or a mountain.

In reply to Doug:

Yes. Go Ape


http://www.goape.co.uk/

Becoming very popular in the UK with new sites being constructed each year throughout the country.

In reply to Doug:

Yes they do - called "Go Ape" over here. There's a few around.

As to the original question. One thing you notice on the continent is the higher level of infrastructure on their hills and mountains, things like TV/radio masts and cable cars. So having a via ferrata get to the top of a mountain that is already developed is somewhat different to putting one up on a UK hill where there is essentially nothing. (Snowdon, Carnwell and Cairngorm are the only hills that come to mind as being similar in the UK)

ALC

In reply to Trangia: but i've heard that the 'bubble has burst' because too many have been built in too shorter time, and not the market is saturated!

I'd love some via feratta's in the UK, especially where nothing else exists, but i understand the conflict caused with the equiping of routes! the europeans seem to have no issues with running lines of bolts up mountains, so a via ferrata isn't a very big step away, however, we are a bit more adverse to spoiling the beauty of the landscape with metal work, so you'd have trouble getting people to accept it

In reply to a lakeland climber:

There's also a little question of scale

There's so much more rock in continental Europe which is unused (or less used) for climbing. The other factor is the importance of tourism to alpine areas, via-ferata, mountain bike runs, artificial lakes etc are desperate attempts by local councils to attract visitors, especially with the reduced skiing possibilities due to the gradually warming climate.

I don't think that it is something to be encouraged.

In reply to glasto_mudd:

Not so - they are fully booked most weekends and holidays. Mid week outside of school holidays is the best time to go.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:


Tourism is equally important to rural areas in the UK.

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:


I think it would be a good idea under controlled conditions in particular that it did not conflict with climbing areas. Disused quarries could be an option.

Because of the costs involved I can't see it being developed on anything but a fee paying commercial basis, but don't have an access issue with that for a privately owned quarry.

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:

You don't find Via Ferattas (Ferratae?) in culturally Protestant countries, even when there is the rock available. Much greater resistance to bolts in these places too, of course. Norway and the USA are good examples. I know the latter has increasing numbers of Catholics but it's cultural values have been largely Protestant-Puritan.

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:

Indeed. However we have things like the speed limit on Windermere which, whether you agree with it or not, has affected some businesses adversely. It would appear, at least in National Parks, that there is sentiment to reduce cross-activity impact - in the above instance due to noise and safety - so via ferrata would appear to be a non-starter in the Lakes except in cases where they are installed on private land as in the case of the Honister one.

As a landowner I can let people wander scramble over my land at their own risk but if I put in facilities to encourage/ease access then I become responsible with all attendant insurance/legal issues and costs. I can't imagine landowners like the National Trust either actively pushing for such "facilities" or even condoning their installation on the lands that they own/manage.

ALC

In reply to a lakeland climber:

The reason they were allowed to do the via ferrata at Honister is purely because it hasn't adversely affected the surrounding area. It is after all a giant industrial site not really a 'mountain'.

It's quite hard to see as well so the visual impact is minimal. LDNPA couldn't really argue - although the first one was built in a do it first ask questions later style ;0)

In reply to flaneur:

Interesting theory. Can you confirm that the Troubles in Northern Ireland were precipitated by a Catholic plot to bolt Fairhead?

In reply to biscuit:

Which is what I said.

And don't get me started on the LDNPA! <mutter><mutter>

ALC

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:

I'm surprised that no-one has mentioned that Via Ferratas in the Alps/Dolomites at least were originated in the first world war as the means of getting troops around in the mountains, so the infrastructure was already there...

In reply to biscuit:

I suspect that a Via Ferrata across the Upper Girdle on Beinn Eighe would also be pretty hard to see. Wonder what local guides would pay me to put one up?

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:

We already have a via Ferrata, the Elie chain walk: http://www.surfrock.co.uk/graphics/eile/eile.htm

Why is it that protestant countries don't have via ferrata's? Is it because they believe less in life after dying from falling down a dodgy steel cable?

In reply to a lakeland climber:

Many of Go Ape's sites are on Forestry Commission Land. They have leased the land (or the trees) to the company who have taken legal advice on the question of liability, risk assessment etc. If the Foestry Commission are satisfied the same should apply to the National Trust and similar land owners.

In reply to To_Boldly_Go:

The original ones made use of existing structures, but they have proliferated beyond, and also onto lower-level crags, where you tend to get quite sporty and strenuous numbers.

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:


Troubles started in late sixties, Messner responds by writing 'Murder of the Impossible' in '71. Case proven!


It's always struck me that Catholic and Protestant countries seem to have different values regarding mankind's relationship with the natural world. In the former, Nature is to be exploited for mankind's benefit, in the latter Nature is worshiped. Or something like that. Fairly obviously I am lacking the benefit of a Catholic education needed to put a bit more flesh of my flesh on this arguement.

In reply to Jamie Bankhead: I beleive the army have recently installed a via ferrata on Broad Stand...

In reply to flaneur:

You mean that Roman Catholics have an overwhelming desire to do this to all mountain tops?

http://www.copacabana.info/christ-the-redeemer.html

In reply to Jamie Bankhead: No - as I said on another thread, via ferrata originated in WW1 as a means of moving soldiers across the mountains quckley and relitively safely. As a result it stuck. All the mountain crags in this country have been developed as climbing venues. Why would you want to string a cable up them and who would pay for it to be done?

In reply to Jon Dittman:


That's what I was hoping to find out...

In reply to Jon Dittman:

I believe some of them - Possnecker perhaps - pre-date the first world war. Della Trincee (way of the Trenches) definitely date from WWI, as do the big tunnels on the ones at Tofana and Tre Cima.

The reasons for their popularity are simple - you can move fast over interesting terrain and reach a summit without the need to be super-fit, super strong or spend a night out on the mountain.

Nothing in the England and Wales fits this criteria - yes I know people have been benighted on Idwal Slabs - and obviously the outrage would be enormous. However I could imagine some tourist board in Scotland, feeling the pinch as the ski season diminishes to nothing, looking abroad at how other mountain areas cope, and suggesting building one up some neglected mountain crag

In reply to Jamie Bankhead: climbing has gone as far as buildering etc...so why not have via ferrabuildering (best i could come up with) lol certainly something different.

In reply to Chris the Tall:

How do you define neglected?

I wouldn't trust any survey undertaken or even partly sponsored by a vested interest -

I participated in a Scottish Tourism survey some years ago that was looking at the benefits to the economy of different types of visitors. What wasn't clear at the time was that the survey was, in part, intended to show that hunting and stalking were as important to the economy as walking and climbing. The results weren't what was expected (the cynic might say wanted) and it took some pressure on the STB to get the report published.

ALC

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:

Being pedantic, the plural of "via ferrata" is "vie ferrate".

I just knew you'd be desperate to know that

In reply to Chris the Tall: As far as I know, all the French via ferrata are modern, I think was first was at Fressinières in the 1980s (I know the guy responsible) & that was purely for 'sport'(although may have helped custom at his gite/hotel). Others have often been paid for by local councils, etc as a way of encouraging tourism. I don't think any lead to a summit

In reply to hwackerhage:
The Chain Walk is great,I've taken the kids on it a couple of times and they love it.Would this sort of idea work in other coastal area's?,I cann't see why not.
sjm

In reply to Doug:
Yep, the French ones are all very recent. The three that I've done were all fee-based and clearly set up to increase tourism in quiet areas. All led to minor summits, but were more like assualt courses than climbing trips, with long bridges, tyroleans and even an overhanging scramble net. The sort of thing you can do in a country with vast amounts of rock that no one seems to care about

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:

Looks like someone has already been 'testing the waters' on Broad Stand!

In reply to Chris the Tall: I've always thought that there was more or less a VF in the Llanberis quarries - I took my eldest round it years ago, through tunnels, up dodgy ladders, into mysterious big holes - it was great! That's probably the only place I think a VF would be justified in the UK.

In reply to sjminfife:
a mid level traverse of beachy head maybe?
traditional British landmark, I'm sure the tourists would love it!

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

One of the recent VFs in the Saas valley is up the line of a former rock climb - one which according to the Alpine Club guide was rather good.

In reply to Chris the Tall:


It would indeed be a shame if it was done purely for financial gain. However, it does raise the question - who pays for it in Italy? After all, anyone can use them for free and some dedicated individual regulaly walks all paths with three pots of paint to ensure they are well marked. Must cost a pretty penny so who pays and how do they gain?

In reply to Jon Dittman:

There are a few scratty crags in Borrowdale which would be great for a Via Ferrata - and create a cleaned line up the crag - Walla Crag; Great End Crag (up the line of Greatend Groove area) and Goat Crag (Up the line of Deadly Nightshirt)

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:

there's not really enough rock in The Uk for VF.

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:

No

>They are massively popular in the continent, not least amongst UK visitors, as a low-skill means of getting amongst steep terrain.

I am not sure that low skill is the right description, it is perhaps a safer way of scrambling (with some technical climbing bits on the harder ones).


I can only really see this happening to encourage tourism. Though I am sure that the climbing community would oppose it - fact is that what happens in the Alps and is accepted is much different to what we do in the UK.

In reply to Jon Dittman:

Local councils I imagine, that's the case in France generally.

In reply to Jon Dittman:
>However, it does raise the question - who pays for it in Italy?

The via ferrata fairies - cousins of the bolt fairies

I've always assumed it was either the local councils or some collective of the businesses that benefit (refugios, chairlift operations, guides, accomodation providers). I've always got the impression that these areas are far more aware of the value of all year round tourism and of cooperating towards a common goal than say, certain councils in Scotland with their attitude towards bike races !