UKC

This week's Friday Night Video is an in-depth look at the evolution of indoor bouldering walls by YouTuber Hannah Morris. As the discipline soars in popularity, we are in a golden age for indoor bouldering.

There are a staggering 20,000+ climbing gyms worldwide and 38 bouldering gyms in London alone - with new facilities opening every year.

Hannah explores how both the physical spaces of bouldering gyms and the communities that form in them have changed by visiting the oldest and newest dedicated centres in the UK: the Mile End Climbing Wall and The Climbing Hangar Edinburgh, built in 1980 and 2024 respectively.

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In reply to UKC News: Not sure about the claim for Mile End being the oldest centre in the UK. Leeds University Wall opened in 1964 and there were loads of walls around in the 70s, Rothwell, Richard Dunn, Sheffield YMCA to name just a few.  Mick Ward wrote a super article about Leeds wall that was on here a few years ago link below.  https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/features/how_the_leeds_wall_changed_cli...

In reply to UKC News:

I'm sorry Hannah. You should have talked to more people. This is a misrepresentation of the history of climbing walls.

Mile End, as KPS said above, was hardly the first dedicated climbing centre, bouldering or lead.

I worked with the late Andy Reid (Mile End boss), and Graham Desroy at DR Cimbing Walls, at Mile End, in the late 80s. Putting up some of the first panel/resin panels...the French got there first (Pyramid).

Those concrete blocks, I probably set them. The rocks in them I used to gather from Hodge Close and Leicester quarries. Please don't ever use them for gear placements as the current manager said. Very few ever did (apart from Ken Wilson).

Still, your basic premise is great, gyms/walls today are amazing and life changing.

This was really spoiled by the advert and coupon code. I almost switched off.

Mick Ryan

In reply to UKC News:

"in-depth look at climbing walls..."

Really, Natalie. I don't think so.

In reply to UKC News:

Llangefni, Rothwell, Plas y Brenin were going in the 70's

In reply to Kipper-Phil Smith:

Rothwell and Dicky Dunns were in council leisure centres. Leeds uni would have only been accessed by students or staff. They weren't dedicated climbing centres in the same way as mile end - open to the general public *and* primarily focused on climbing 

In reply to Matt Podd:

Is Mile End the oldest surviving bouldering wall? I would be surprised if it is? 

In reply to Andy Hardy:

I'm fine with the claim that Mile End was the first dedicated climbing centre (i.e. aimed at existing climbers and not part of a more general sport facility) but the video - as far as I made it anyway - was puff.

Edit: Regarding dates: Mile End can reasonably claim to have been a dedicated climbing centre only once they'd removed the pool. IIRC this will have been in 1988 or perhaps early 1989.

In reply to john arran: was Ambleside wall earlier? Arguably a dedicated centre

In reply to UKC News:

Sobel climbing wall opened in 1976 and open to the general public.

Belper wall opened in 1971

In reply to robert-hutton: were either dedicated bouldering walls? Most of the earlier walls were centred on roped climbing

In reply to UKC News:

Rungne this, athletic greens that. The advertising in these videos is what's most off-putting, never mind the indoor climbing footage which rarely fails to bore. I turned off during the magdust sell fest 

In reply to UKC News:

For some reason I thought the Foundry was the first ‘proper’ climbing wall in the UK (1992?). By that I mean a dedicated facility which climbers today would recognise as a modern wall, as opposed to some bricks stuck in a corridor wall. Sounds like Mike End got there first?

In reply to JamesG:

If anyone, anyone, advertises Athletic Greens, yes brilliant for a referral income, they lose any creditability. Same with Red Bull - you are essentially promoting nutritional rubbish and ripping people off.

Love Dave Macleod's take down of them...  youtube.com/watch?v=lkMWgP-b46Y&

A total scam, both Red Bull and AG1

In reply to Misha:

Sounds like Mike End got there first?

It probably was. Certainly the most impressive and had bouldering and lead.

Not at all. But Andy Reid, was certainly a visionary.

In reply to UKC News:

Gyms? Surely not, where's Robert Durran?

In reply to Andy Hardy:

and non students and staff.......they were quite liberal.

In reply to Andy Hardy: No that’s not correct I went to Leeds Uni wall frequently and was never staff or student at the uni. Loads in there were not connected to the university in any way. 

Being a dedicated climbing centre rather than in a multi activity building is a red herring. Broughton Wall may have been in a council sports centre but it was pivotal in developing many NW based climbers and had a very strong climbing network and culture

In reply to pancakeandchips:

I was just wondering the same. 

Perhaps he finally got so incensed that he's suffered an aneurysm and is currently unable to type, so if anyone here knows Robert well maybe they should just check in and make sure he's ok.

In reply to fotoVUE:

I can't stand adverts either, but it seems a little churlish to moan all that much when the content is otherwise being given away for free and you can skip past the advertising section if you choose to anyway. If you appreciate the rest of the video, can you really begrudge them trying to make a little money off it?

In reply to deepsoup:

I'm ok thanks. Just a bit sad really; still mourning the loss of the Ratho boulders😢. The Arena and my life feel rather empty without them.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Let’s be honest, it’s really just the mats and the seating they afforded that you miss…

In reply to Kipper-Phil Smith:

How did you hear about the Leeds wall? I'm guessing another climber told you about it. I think the film is looking at the transition between word of mouth introductions to indoor bouldering of the 70s and 80s into what we have today - where loads of folk never go outside and climbing is in the same marketplace as a Pilates class for the urban Instagram devotees

Broughton was the best and most realistic wall ever built. Non of this modern parkour style jumping around stuff. Broughton was all about small crimps and technical moves. There was a huge excel spreadsheet with all the problems listed and it required a bit of mental effort to figure out where each problem went, much more engaging than simply pulling on and follows line of brightly coloured holds. Broughton RIP you were legendary!

In reply to InC:

Shout out for the bouldering wall in Altrincham. Many sweaty evenings there on the traverses etc. I think this predated Broughton. 

In reply to JLS:

No, I am genuinely distressed at the loss of the boulders. But I suppose getting somewhere to sit again might be a small consolation even if the new comp-blob wall turns out as rubbish as I fear.

In reply to UKC News:

Having had a rather depressing skim through the video, I do wonder whether there might still be a viable market for old-school no frills bouldering walls aimed at "real" climbers at an affordable price for quick sessions. The sort training facility one would build at home if one had the space, know-how and time.

In reply to InC:

I started going to Broughton in autumn 1991.I wouldn't have even known it existed if it wasn't for a friend who helped build it and told  me about its whereabouts.Not a dedicated centre.Id moved up from London.Mile end was a cutting edge bouldering centre at the time nowhere else like it (not sure about the centre in Bristol was that the early 90s ?).The next big step  though was surely the foundry circa 1992 ?

In reply to Robert Durran:

I do wonder whether there might still be a viable market for old-school no frills bouldering walls aimed at "real" climbers at an affordable price for quick sessions. 

If you listen to what's being said it the vid, and read just a wee bit between the lines, you'll find the answer to that question.

Mr £3 for a coffee

In reply to Robert Durran:

I guess the tricky thing would be doing it in a way where you can actually make a business out of it. Property leases in attractive locations, business rates, wages, it’s not the ‘90’s any more! Unless you are imagining a wealthy benefactor who can provide a loss making facility for the tight fisted ‘real’ climbers! 

Onyx in Blackburn are probably the closest to this, still £10 per visit though, so would depend what you mean by ‘affordable’. 

In reply to daWalt:

For a coffee? I was thinking about that as an entrance fee and then bring my own flask😉

In reply to Robert Durran:

No there isn't. No matter how much we venerate places like Broughton the truth is attracted a max of about 25 people on a busy winter's evening and was frequently empty at other times, this was when there was no competition to it. I know climbing has grown since then but not by that much. The truth is, no matter what we have lost to the past (in climbing) we have gained infinitely more.

In reply to Andy Hardy:

You may be right about word of mouth being how I heard about Leeds Wall Andy. 

There were articles that mentioned it as well. In Mountain magazine Edition 42 March / April 1975 there is an excellent article by Pete Livesey "Castaways on a Gritstone Island" that mentioned Leeds Wall and its influence on development of Yorkshire Grit. 
Livesey Wrote "A fresh emergent rock group rehearses hard at Leeds University - all lead players in an innovatory band. Concrete backed brick edges wince at the bite of fingernails belonging to solid arms, gaining height with scant regard for traditional posture. The members of the band look alike:all Perrins skinny-armed type embellished by pop group looks. Concentrated competion drives them to perfect ever more ridiculous moves ......

Mick Wards article that I linked to above and Livesey refer to the influence of John Syrett but Livesey seems to see Al Manson to be of equal significance writing "Al Manson, without doubt the first man to make the real breakthrough in Climbing wall standards" 

By this time Rothwell wall had opened Livesey writes "its bigger and better.... Climbers perform unroped. a must for effective training" 

After reading this article we began to make regular trips up to Rothwell but on occasions I went to Leeds University Wall. I seem to recall at Leeds you just walked in no one seemed to mind you being there I don't seem to recall ever having to pay to get in but could be wrong about that. 

In reply to Tyler:

Yes, in sheer number of walls there is massively more, but is anyone building lead walls any more (genuine question - I don't know)? Are we in danger of losing the diversity of walls and just having the choice of multiple generic flat-panel largely blob-based bouldering walls.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Depot currently finishing one off in Manchester, so that will be blob based leading instead!

In reply to Arms Cliff:

The lead setting at Ratho is getting insidiously more blobby. It's like a slowly progressing pustulent disease vectored by kids comps.

In reply to Robert Durran:

The Chapel is pretty much blob-free. They do exist and thrive. If you know where to find them.

In reply to Robert Durran:

 We’ve still not lost anything, the same number of lead walls are there (and I wish there were more) but there was never diversity. We went from vertical brick with stone inserts to sprayed concrete to what we have now. What we have now has more angles and the problems change which is an improvement, I  think on balance I’d rather have Depot Manc than Broughton much as I miss it. 
 

In reply to UKC News:

I found this video very interesting as it looks at why indoor climbing and particularly indoor bouldering has become so popular.

I come from a trad climbing and mountaineering background, but I also do sports climbing and climb regularly indoors and I’ve been fascinated by how many people climb exclusively indoors and have no interest in climbing outside.

I think Ged MacDomhnaill of TCH comments were particularly relevant, and see indoor bouldering becoming the dominating activity in climbing because it requires nothing more than climbing shoes and chalk and therefore will have mass appeal.

I suppose my question is at what point does indoor climbing become so diverse from traditional mountaineering activities to no longer be considered part of the broad church of climbing?

In reply to Steve Woollard:

After hillwalking and rambling

In reply to Misha:

I think the wave is touted as the first bouldering wall that had dedicated matting.

In reply to will_mcmahon:

Mile End had dedicated matting fitted before The Foundry opened. I know, because just after they'd installed it I landed right on the edge of it and sprained my ankle!

In reply to john arran:

Just to add that The Foundry's Wave may well have been the first bouldering wall to have been designed with dedicated matting in mind. The fitted matting at Mile End was retro fitted to existing walls.

In reply to UKC News:

Not sure it was the first, but Mile End Wall was and still is undoubtedly special. I have many fond memories of all the people I met there. The Monkey room was always the highlight of a session spent there followed by The Palm Tree pub. I have a number of the original Enterprise holds from Mile End Wall from the 80-90s in my own home wall. They needed a home despite their age and I will never part with them. Every time I use them I think of all the climbers that climbed on them and also how climbing has evolved.

In reply to UKC News:

Some great nostalgia on here this morning... Bit hot for pipe and slippers surely?

The idea that a wall where the problems were listed on a massive spreadsheet was "the best wall ever built" is absolute rubbish. As Tyler says, if it was that good it would still be open. 

In reply to spidermonkey09

Presumably being good for being commercially viable is not necessarily the same as being good for training.

In reply to Tyler:

We've lost (or are losing) textured and featured panels which might or might not also have bolted on changeable holds.

In reply to spidermonkey09:

But fine for deckchair, shorts and sandals on the patio. Broughton was the best wall ever to train for crimpy trad and sport climbing and delicate footwork (it got me up RW). It closed because the centre was closed due to council cuts and demolished to make way for housing

In reply to The sharp end:

The Palm Tree never seemed to close. Had some messy sessions in there. Was the social club for rope access workers.

In reply to kevin stephens:

Assuming you mean Right Wall, people have successfully managed to train for it at modern walls...

In reply to Robert Durran:

The bouldering section at the old Inverness wall was good for this; it definitely felt more like climbing on real rock (pocketed sandstone specifically) than any wall I've used since. Especially with regards to footwork.

In reply to InC:

They certainly knew how to have fun in those days.

In reply to UKC News:

Thank you for making this film. I climbed in Mile End in 1994, while studying in London. Remember North London Rescue Commando name and Monkey House of course. Can't believe it's been 30 years now. 

I'm regular at Sheffield Depot which matches your description of modern wall. Love climbing competition style boulders at grades accessible for me (V3, V4), which I'm sure it's very hard for setters to achieve. Love seeing even easier boulders at comp wall, next to really hard stuff. Wide Boyz cracks, which appear not frequently enough, helped me to finally learn jamming and translate to outdoor trad climbs. It's something for everyone. Happy with how our sport evolved.

In reply to Robert Durran:

The Depot are claiming that their new offering in Wythenshawe will be the largest in the UK.

In reply to Roberttaylor:

Yes, its footwork which has been largely forgotten about with modern walls. 

In reply to UKC News

On balance I do like the modern bouldering wall scene but it is a shame we can’t have that alongside some of the ‘old school’ characteristics, i.e. textured panels that helped your footwork. The old Huddersfield sports centre and Barden Community Assiciation (Burnley) were both good examples that I miss

In reply to planetmarshall:

Easily. It's colossal!

In reply to Robert Durran:

I think as you see indoor bouldering walls evolve to attract more and more customers you'll see an increasing departure from what you'd find on real rock and the techniques to climb indoor bouldering problems will also become very different to that which you'd use outdoors. There's a reason why they're called "climbing gyms" and there was an article on UKC a few days ago that demonstrated this.

https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/skills/series/paris_2024_olympic_games/...

In reply to planetmarshall:

I've just looked at their website and it actually says largest in England, so presumably smaller than Ratho (?). From the look of the virtual tour it doesn't look particulary high anyway, but hard to tell. And rather ominously: "The climbing style will reflect current and future indoor rock climbing trends".

Edit: Looked again and it now says biggest in UK! Maybe two different things.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Which would also make it the largest in Europe, since I believe Ratho currently holds that title.

I don't know how tall the walls will be, but for floor area, the planning documents are available online.

In reply to Fellover:

Yes of course, on lead walls. I don’t think so much on blobby blocs

In reply to Andy Hardy:

Seems a bit dismissive? Lots of people go purely to climbing walls and get a great experience out of it; they are being active, they meet new people, they might not have been sporty in the past but have found this great new thing to learn...

The constant sneering at people who just go inside is much more tragic than anything these indoor climbers are doing. Maybe just accept that different people enjoy different things?

In reply to UKC News: I think the novelty of an old school vertical wall with crimps would  soon wear off- not much variery, and you'd soon be injured, especially us folk over 50.

In reply to Robert Durran:

The lead walls at Kendall have all been rebuilt, photo below before route setting (courtesy Lakeland’s FB page). 25m and reassuringly has been set in a non-blobby fashion.

In reply to Andrew Wells:

Fair point. Everything was better when I had a flat stomach and loads of hair though.

In reply to wbo2:

On the contrary, at 60 I find that all the dynamic blobby weirdness pushing and contorting in "unnatural" ways makes it feel like my body could break at any moment.

Conventional setting need not be boring. A variety of angles with a variety of "normal" holds (a bit like you get outdoors in fact) and a progression of grades for everyone to be able to warm up ought to be fine.

No reason why the two styles can't coexist, but it does feel like the conventional stuff is getting squeezed out.

In reply to kevin stephens:

To be fair most modern walls have circuit boards, which I prefer for endurance training than lead walls anyway. Admittedly they are often busy. Without blowing my own trumpet I think when I did right wall I hadn't been in a lead wall for ages, at least not for training, maybe a few token visits. I did train endurance, but I did it on a fingerboard with my feet on a chair - seemed quite effective.

In reply to Robert Durran:

I agree that whether or not a particular indoor problem is "boring" generally comes down to the quality of the setting rather than the types of hold being used. Blochaus in Manchester has, in my opinion, the best problem setting in the area and has very little in the way of competition-style problems (though I accept this maybe a bit self-selecting as I generally dislike those kind of problems).

In reply to Fellover:

When I go to Sheffield Depot i spend most of my time on the excellent circuit board. Fortunately most of the blob jumpers stay away from it.

In reply to Robert Durran:

They do seem to be rolling back a bit on the "biggest in the UK" claim (though it still appears in places on their website) - so maybe Ratho complained...

They have confirmed that the maximum height of their walls is 15m which is a little disappointing, but a variety of angles would be a welcome change from the fairly homogeneous offerings at AW Stockport.

In reply to Robert Durran:

I'm going to throw this out there, as someone who has done my fair share of bouldering up to about 7B outdoors, and who had climbed at various walls and in various countries on different rock types (so although I've only known about climbing for five years I feel I have enough experience to comment);

Blobs are outdoorsy. If you are on a vert wall where you are stood on a slopey volume with your hands on two slopers and you need to get a high foot and slap up to a third one, well that's grit, that's sandstone, that's font. If you have to dyno to a bucket on a roof and get a high heel on a small edge, that's Albarracin and Font and god knows where else.

Maybe Indoor bouldering doesn't simulate careful, one move at a time trad climbing well but all these contortionist positions and dynamic movements are very much present on outdoor boulders in my experience. Sure I've never done a paddle dyno outside but doing them inside is definitely why I gpt some 7A one movers done outside in the last year or so. Maybe the real issue isn't that indoor bouldering is not like outdoors, it's that it's not like a vert trad route on ratty crimps. I'd argue that's quite a small subset of "outdoor climbing" and that prancing on blobs was what Johnny Dawes was doing in the 80s

In reply to kevin stephens:

Ah nice - we've probably met, the circuit boards are very good there. I wish they could come up with some way to get more than one person on the board at once.

In reply to paul_in_cumbria:

Granted it's been a while since I've climbed there, but it looks more like they've just given it a coat of paint rather than a rebuild

In reply to UKC News:

I think the core Hannah Morris audience is part of a Venn diagram with typical ukc users. It has definitely been fun to reminisce about crap walls we used to love. My spectacles are as tinted as anyone else's. I'm not alone in my slight grumpiness over modern setting and how tricky it can be to train for typical 80-100 degree little crimpy wall climbing. You just have to search harder. The circuit board/splatter board at my local will is excellent, and often empty. Second the vote for Onyx, a gem. I've only been once rained off in mid Lancs, walked in and registered and immediately felt at home in the '2-up from DIY' vibe but thought I'd run out of stuff in an hour or so. Wrong! It packs a lot into a relatively modest size and the setting and people are great. You can tell their demographic.  

In reply to fotoVUE:

Are you saying red bull doesn’t actually give you wings? I’m in shock, how do they get away with scamming people like this. 

In reply to Fellover:

I managed to successfully train for a long, burly Yosemite route with plenty of wide-ish climbing on it on my local, reasonably blobby wall. Stylistically they’re about as far from each other as it’s possible to be, but also… kinda not. 

In reply to planetmarshall:

To be honest, my experience of the Hangar in Sheffield (which seems to be fairly representative of "new school" bouldering walls?)  has been that there's not actually much full-on running-jump parkour paddle-dyno stuff. Maybe it's just the modest grades that I climb at (blues and purples), but while there are a lot of blobs and bars and dishes and fins and things, they tend to be set to force you to use balance and precision and body positioning and stuff rather than just leaping around - which is good, because I'm too fat, old and injury-prone to have much truck with that sort of stuff.

I get that this is still different from a ladder of nasty crimps that gives you the optimal forearm workout without any of the tedious "thinking" and "problem solving" and "having fun", but some of the complaints here seems a bit off-target.

In reply to Wide_Mouth_Frog:

All new steelwork and a rebuild. The were shut for quite a long time …

In reply to paul_in_cumbria:

I've only been on it once since it re opened (rainy day) and it is quite different. Lots of subtle changes that add up to quite a different feel. The main wall is much more consistent now and routes that were previously broken up and didn't flow now flow really nicely.

AND the setting is ace. Like really good. They've got a first class setting team. 

In reply to biscuit:

Totally agree re quality setting on the lead walls. Since the new bouldering unit opened, the bouldering upstairs in the attic has been like a private members club, very quiet. Again, great setting. I think it’ll be closing for a revamp soon, but have been reliably informed that they’re keeping the big lead roof, which is my favourite.

In reply to planetmarshall:

They could be the biggest in the world measured in square metres or number of lines, but if routes are a maximum of only 15m, they are never going to compete with Ratho or other higher walls for their lead climbing experience.

In reply to Andrew Wells:

Fair enough. I hardly ever boulder outdoors and so almost all my bouldering is done indoors as strength and technique training for trad and sport, so the likes of you and I will inevitably have different requirements.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Sure, but I don't think that criticisms of indoor bouldering for being "not like outdoor climbing" are fair, it's often similar to outdoor bouldering, which in fairness is sorta what it tries to do.

Or to put it another way; its not the wall's fault you want to use it to train for a style of climbing it isn't trying to emulate!

In reply to Andrew Wells:

Yes, you are right. I am a victim of bouldering having increasingly become an end in itself, first outdoors and now indoors. I have become part of a minority which is inevitably no longer where the market really is. 

In reply to Robert Durran:

Victim is a bit of a strong word Robert! Cheer up, it's not like trad is going anywhere. The world of climbing is changing but those things you love are still there. You'll just have to go questing a bit further for the appropriate venue to train for your projects is all

In reply to UKC News:

There will now be 36 bouldering gyms in London after the Arch announced they’re closing two of their centres. 

In reply to john arran:

I was going to Mile End from around 1987 and I dimly remember the (by then disused/empty) pool in what is now the Monkey Room...it was probably 1989? At that time the roof leaked (I remember snow on the holds on the slab to the left of the entrance to the main room) and of course we used jumpers for bouldering mats...

I was also involved as a trustee in the late 90s/early 00's so oversaw some of the early steps towards "modernisation"...on which note I can't believe they have replaced the reception area traverse with a weights area....I will be writing to my MP!

In reply to seankenny:

Has supply out stripped demand across the whole city do you think? Or maybe some in the wrong places?

In reply to Andrew Wells:

Yes, sorry. I'll try.

I expect the quest would be in vain. 

In reply to TobyA:

Wrong places. One of those closing I know well and it’s just in a bit of an awkward spot to get to. That of course is why they can rent a climbing wall-sized space in the first place…

In reply to seankenny:

First proper dedicated bouldering wall in the UK. Boulder UK. Before that everything else was jsut a climbing wall that didn't have ropes.

Mile End had roped climbing so by defintion wasn't a dedicated bouldering wall. But is does get credit as the UK's first proper dedicated climbing wall, it pre-dates the Foundry by a good few years although the Foundry did take things to another level.

Interesting that an in-depth look at bouldering walls doesn't mention BUK (original one in Blackburn) or the Works - BUK probably planted the seed that led to the Works which led to .......

In reply to seankenny:

I've been to the Acton one the last two times I've been in London for work. It was fine, but a slightly awkward space that didn't lend itself to wall angles and setting like the more modern mega warehouse ones do.

Not sure which is the closest wall to the office in Brentford now!

In reply to galpinos:

Fair enough, but I suspect it wouldn't be closing if it were five minutes walk from a tube station rather than fifteen or twenty.

The Hang in Hounslow I guess?

In reply to seankenny:

Never noticed, I always lime biked to it!

Any good? Looks very "London".......

In reply to galpinos:

Thats far beyond my risk profile! 

No idea, not been as it’s a bit awkward for me…

In reply to fotoVUE:

When did Ambleside open - I'm guessing 1987 ? I remember it had similar holds set in breeze blocks.