UKC

Can anyone tell me some uses of the alpine butterfly knot and how it compares/is prefered to, other simular knots and which knots are better in certain situations etc.

Thanks

In reply to Daniel Hunter:

Very good for tying into the middle of a rope when you haven't got a harness. Good for extra anchor points when setting up a static line.

In reply to Daniel Hunter:

- for showing how good you are at tying obscure knots

- tying on to middle of a rope

- also, I was told, for isolating a weak or damaged section of rope

In reply to Daniel Hunter:
I suspect that given the overhand knot has proved to be safe when trying to pull the rope apart it's probably had its day, but it's still the most beautiful knot around!!

In reply to Daniel Hunter:

Good for the middle man on the rope on a glacier. Guides lark foot the lemmings into them sometimes also.

Good for equalised anchors in certain situations - fig-8 at the far away one, and then a butterfly onto the near one. Can't explain better, sorry.

And the number one, almost exclusive use: showing off down the pub. You've all been there - rain, alps, cute little blonde thing with the big eyes that's just started climbing and thinks she's talking to a "real climber". Great knot...

In reply to Daniel Hunter:
I always use it to tie on to the middle of the rope. I trust it more than an overhand knot for doing that.
I can't tie it the fancy 'round the hand 3 times' way though. I make 2 loops and go under and through the middle. Like this http://www.chockstone.org/TechTips/Butterfly.htm

In reply to Daniel Hunter: The AB knot can also be loaded multi directionally, so the anchor benefits are obvious.
As someone said above, a damaged part of the rope can be isolated easily and the rope continued to be used.

In reply to Anonymous:

popular knot among rope access techs, like james boyle said, good for creating equalised anchor or Y hang. comes undone easier than a FO8. Don't think it's 'had its day', its still in the syllabus for IRATA L1s anyway. I use it a fair bit.

In reply to crieff427:
meant overhand not F08...

In reply to Daniel Hunter:

Used in stretcher rigging in mountain rescue situations and or if a 3-way pull is anticipated.

Slugain

In reply to melmyo:

But that's the easy way! Much simpler than twisting loops...

In reply to petestack:

A big advantage of the alpine butterfly is that if you use it to tie into the middle of the rope and then seriously weight the rope it still unties very easily. An overhand knot weighted for any time is hard to untie.

Gary.

I've always liked using it to secure myself when I've topped out and am belaying the person seconding.

In reply to petestack:
I just can't do it, I always end up with a magic knot, with isn't much good for anything!

In reply to Daniel Hunter:

The one thing it's most excellent for is setting up an equalised two-anchor ab with minimum gear. Though I suppose there are other knots you can use I think this probably uses the least rope (compared to the 'bunny ears' or triple loop fig-8)

For tying in to the middle of the rope I'd normally use a bowline-on-the-bight as it's a nice, tidy solution, but you could use an alpine butterfly in combination with a girth hitch or a krab.

In reply to quadmyre:

A much overlooked use of the Butterfly (which is an excellent knot for all the reasons above, and no slower to tie than a fig 8) is in glacier travel. It beats, hands down, the popular overhand... and before you say yes, look above, think again. The common practice of tying a string of knots in the rope, to prevent you falling further into a crevasse than necessary, usually shows overhands. This is the last knot to use, precisely because of it's qualities when used in an abseiling situation. The Butterfly presents a ridge which jams in the snow. (Personally I never use knots along the rope as I think they cause more problems than they solve, but for advocates of this system, this is the knot to use).

In reply to melmyo:


There are few easier knots!!

In reply to Daniel Hunter:

'tis a thing of beauty which is justification enough to use it. I try to use it in abseil set ups just for the aesthetics of it.

In reply to Daniel Hunter:
It is handy for creating a loop from which you can hang spare gear, ruck sack, etc......and easy to untie.

As some of the posters above, for tying in a middle climber, and in belay anchors, etc.

Sxx

In reply to Slugain Howff:

You reckon? It's about the only knot I seem to get wrong first time, every time! And I can never, ever remember the round the hand method...

In reply to Daniel Hunter:

I hear it's good for getting past knots in abseils making a loop to clip into before detatching the ab' device.

In reply to Carolyn:

The round the hand method I think is a lot more fiddly than the 'twisted over, then threaded, loop' method, for want of a better description. Almost impossible to describe but very easy to do once you know how

In reply to Carolyn:

I'm a double twist man myself. Shove 75cm of dyneema in your handbag/pocket and practice during your teabreak.

Slugain

In reply to jon:

In reply to Slugain Howff:


'fraid it's a nappy bag at the moment

I've got much better at that way since joining the rescue team. Far too many jokes if you're one of the very few girls and can't tie knots......

In reply to Daniel Hunter:

When tying into the middle of a rope for climbing, can a figure of eight not be used?

In reply to Gordon Stainforth: Coincidentally, the two thread about knots are neck-and-neck...

As posted in the other thread...

...and the butterfly that I was too lazy to describe. Well, the animation is better than the description

http://www.animatedknots.com/alpinebutterfly/index.php?LogoImage=LogoGrog.j...

One picture being worth a 1000 words etc

In reply to Daniel Hunter:

Well, it'd make a loop in the middle of the rope....

But if both ends coming out of the knot were loaded at the same time, it'd tend to cause the fig 8 knot to "roll", making the loop you've created get smaller, and smaller.....

In reply to Wotcha:

That's a superb animation/series of frames (why isn't that technique used more often for explaining knots, I wonder?) Interestingly, for the hand method, that's the opposite way round to the way I do it, because I wrap it round the right hand. Doing it round the left hand is possibly easier. But the big snag with the hand method is that you end up with a very small loop that then has to be extended, whereas the other way you can get the loop more or less exactly the size you want it straight off.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
But the big snag with the hand method is that you end up with a very small loop that then has to be extended, whereas the other way you can get the loop more or less exactly the size you want it straight off.

No. At the last stage, just before you put the loop through the knot to finish it, you just pull out the amount of rope you need, then put it through. As you say, really good animation, that's exactly how I do it.

In reply to Daniel Hunter:

Yes, it can, and it's used by many people for just that, but if it's loaded it will be more difficult to undo. Also, the Alpine butterfly is faster and easier to adjust (when you know how) than the figure of eight. Plus, as everyone has said, it's a very beautiful knot. I've seen it said that 'if the bowline is the king of knots, the Alpine butterfly is the queen'. One very good point, much liked by rope access aficiondos, is that the strain on the rope, if it is loaded, goes straight through the knot in a way that is virtually unique, I think.

In reply to jon:

It all starts to fall off my hand when I do that. The double twist method seems even easier.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

FWIW, I find wrapping it round the left hand but forming the loop the other way round easiest of all. As shown by Andy Kirkpatrick here:
http://www.psychovertical.com/?alpinebutterfly


While I'd agree that the twisty method makes choosing your loop size very straightforward, I find that advantage negated by it being more fiddly to hold together while incomplete and prefer to do as Jon says. But I'm also a 'wrapper' of figure of eights (round the rope, not my hand!) and don't tie those by the twisty method I sometimes see being taught either.

In reply:
Of special issue are What uses of the Butterfly cannot be met with a "directional"
eyeknot -- such as the Dir.Fig.8 -- , i.e., where the loading is known to be only
either end-to-end or EndA-to-eye (and never EndB-to-eye. (Confer UKCaving
for discussion of some supposed non-"Alpine" "butterfly" and the use of either
knot for rigging drops.)

Someone came up with a quite quick tying method for the Butterfly, which is not
only quick but enables easy sizing of the eye. Verbally (for right-handers), bring
the rope up across the palm and around the back, and up & over again (this is one
wrap fewer than usual wraps method); the wrap can/should be close around the
hand, and although this wrap will become the eye, its elongation is simple.
Then, with the right hand, reaching right-to-left, come from behind the right
end and then in front of the left end,
and reach upwards --letting the now crossing ends drape on the right wrist/arm--
to pinch-pull the loop around the hand down,
and however long you want your eye.
Finally, bring this eye under & up between the ends, and raise it up so that
one can grab this bight with the left fingers and draw it through the knot to
finish. Dress & set.

vioci: www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeKLU_6NLv4

*kN*

In reply to knudeNoggin:

NURSE, he's out again...

In reply to knudeNoggin:

The video's actually quite interesting (a third, 'hybrid' method), but TBH the link's sufficient on its own!

In reply to jon:

Harry, you forgot to flush again...