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for a beginners trad rack and a student, what cheap climbing gear can any one advise to get? have already got harness, shoes, and belay if that helps
In reply to Mr-Cowdrey:
Read this www.needlesports.com/nutsmuseum/nutsstory.htm then make your own.
Best wishe, c
Read this www.needlesports.com/nutsmuseum/nutsstory.htm then make your own.
Best wishe, c
In reply to Mr-Cowdrey:
Watch this website religiously for decent deals and keep searching gear websites. I used to have a list of about 20 gear sites which I used to look at weekly when I first started climbing and looking for cheap gear.
Watch this website religiously for decent deals and keep searching gear websites. I used to have a list of about 20 gear sites which I used to look at weekly when I first started climbing and looking for cheap gear.
In reply to Mr-Cowdrey: buachaille.com has reviews and a price comparison thing.
In reply to Mr-Cowdrey:
Hang on let me get this right ..... correct me if i'm wrong on any account here....
you want to climb either indoors or second outdoors...
you want to stay alive and be able to walk, eat (without the aid of a tube and nurse) ....
and in the process finish your studies as most students want to do
BUT YOU WANT CHEAP GEAR! ok heres a nugget of advice that uni wont teach you ... buy the best gear you can afford, always climb within your grade once you know what that is ... if your on a shoestring then join a outdoors club and see if they take out novices every now and then. Failing all of thatmost uni's have a climbing club .... look for second hand gear from a reliable source .... NOT EBAY! MOST OF ALL HAVE FUN AND STAY SAFE.
cheers Marc
> for a beginners trad rack and a student, what cheap climbing gear can any one advise to get? have already got harness, shoes, and belay if that helps
Hang on let me get this right ..... correct me if i'm wrong on any account here....
you want to climb either indoors or second outdoors...
you want to stay alive and be able to walk, eat (without the aid of a tube and nurse) ....
and in the process finish your studies as most students want to do
BUT YOU WANT CHEAP GEAR! ok heres a nugget of advice that uni wont teach you ... buy the best gear you can afford, always climb within your grade once you know what that is ... if your on a shoestring then join a outdoors club and see if they take out novices every now and then. Failing all of thatmost uni's have a climbing club .... look for second hand gear from a reliable source .... NOT EBAY! MOST OF ALL HAVE FUN AND STAY SAFE.
cheers Marc
In reply to marcbristol: ok...i want to get the cheapest climbing gear i can afford, LEAD outdoors, and yes stay alive. i dont do so much indoors anymore. there isnt a climbing club near by, or one that i can get to easily and im not at uni yet. i dont trust ebay, so looking for cheapest deals on well known TRUSTABLE climbing companies. so any advice??
In reply to Mr-Cowdrey: If you want cheap gear, get a job with a climbing company or shop that sells climbing equipment. People in the industry can get up to 50% off brand new gear.
In reply to Mr-Cowdrey: There are some superbly cheap Alpkit branded DMM Prowire quickdraws available - http://www.alpkit.com/shop/cart.php?target=product&product_id=16499&...
If I was building a new rack from scratch I'd buy three (two if on a limited budget) sets of 6x18cm draws asap. You won't get quickdraws or even just krabs any cheaper.
Keep some as normal draws and then strip the krabs off the rest. You'll then have krabs to make up extendable draws with 60cm slings and also rack other slings, nutkey, prussiks, hexes and cams hopefully still leaving 1-2 spare. You can even sell on the spare 18cm slings to recoup some money or keep them as spares.
As far as slings go, you just need to accept that they are expensive but you don't really need loads of big slings, a load of 60cm and 2x120cm will do for most stuff. I'd say 8mm slings are worth the small premium.
If you've bought a load of quickdraws and stripped them down you'll have enough spare snapgates you don't need more than two medium sized screwgates to start with. 2nd hand ones are generally fine.
In terms of wires/hexes/cams, keep a look out for bargains as described by other posts. Although be aware that there are easily enough options (and opinions) to fill half a dozen posts. The same applies even more so to buying ropes.
HTH
If I was building a new rack from scratch I'd buy three (two if on a limited budget) sets of 6x18cm draws asap. You won't get quickdraws or even just krabs any cheaper.
Keep some as normal draws and then strip the krabs off the rest. You'll then have krabs to make up extendable draws with 60cm slings and also rack other slings, nutkey, prussiks, hexes and cams hopefully still leaving 1-2 spare. You can even sell on the spare 18cm slings to recoup some money or keep them as spares.
As far as slings go, you just need to accept that they are expensive but you don't really need loads of big slings, a load of 60cm and 2x120cm will do for most stuff. I'd say 8mm slings are worth the small premium.
If you've bought a load of quickdraws and stripped them down you'll have enough spare snapgates you don't need more than two medium sized screwgates to start with. 2nd hand ones are generally fine.
In terms of wires/hexes/cams, keep a look out for bargains as described by other posts. Although be aware that there are easily enough options (and opinions) to fill half a dozen posts. The same applies even more so to buying ropes.
HTH
In reply to Mark Stevenson:
Same QDs at Cotswold for £40, online and in store. If you have a shop near you though, pop in and see if they have any LiveWire QDs, I managed to find two packs of 5 for £27.50 each last week I guess the only real difference is that their a bit weightier?
> (In reply to Mr-Cowdrey) There are some superbly cheap Alpkit branded DMM Prowire quickdraws available - http://www.alpkit.com/shop/cart.php?target=product&product_id=16499&...
>
>
Same QDs at Cotswold for £40, online and in store. If you have a shop near you though, pop in and see if they have any LiveWire QDs, I managed to find two packs of 5 for £27.50 each last week I guess the only real difference is that their a bit weightier?
In reply to stoo2k:Cotswold only sell 12cm, whereas Alpkit offer both 12cm and the generally more useful 18cm ones for the same price of 8 pounds each. Most other places that have them charge a fair bit more than that for the 18cm.
PS Great price on the Livewires!
PS Great price on the Livewires!
Yeah, my bad, I skimmed the page and replied too quick! Sorry!
In reply to Mr-Cowdrey: Hi ... why not give avon mountaineering club a go .... they run regular outings and more than often there are goodies for sale..... in fact i may even have a bit of gear for sale i'll have to have a sort out ... go to the website and take a look .... its worth the ten minutes ... hope this helps .... M
In reply to marcbristol:
I don't agree with this. Firstly, how do you find your limits if you never push them?
Secondly, all new gear sold in the UK has to pass minimum safety standards by law. The £60 Edlinger 2 rope in Gooutdoors is just as safe in normal use as the £120 Joker. The budget Rock and Run cams have to pass the same tests as BD camalots, cheap prowires are stronger than the expensive BD Oz wiregates etc etc.
I built my rack up as a student one piece at a time. Every thing on it was a major investment for me. To keep the costs down, I advise that you trade off between lightweight and cost. You can buy some really cheap quickdraws but they weigh twice as much as something only slightly more expensive that will last you longer. DMM prowires are the budget wiregate/quickdraws of the moment. They are functional and pretty light - only a few years ago they were cutting edge, but DMM innovate quickly. For nuts, I would go for a set of classic WC rocks - much cheaper than the modern anodised ones, but do exactly the same job. Hexes are pretty much all the same, but save money by only buying certain sizes rather than a full set (opinions vary, but I never use my 3 or 4 rockcentrics, and the 9 only rarely). I have a set of budget cams (eg Rock and Run) that are approaching their 10th birthday. They cost half as much as the flash ones, but have served me well and I am only just replacing them now.
My biggest piece of advice to save money though, is to only buy what you need. Even a bargain is a waste of money if you don't need it.
> (In reply to Mr-Cowdrey)
> BUT YOU WANT CHEAP GEAR! ok heres a nugget of advice that uni wont teach you ... buy the best gear you can afford, always climb within your grade once you know what that is ...
I don't agree with this. Firstly, how do you find your limits if you never push them?
Secondly, all new gear sold in the UK has to pass minimum safety standards by law. The £60 Edlinger 2 rope in Gooutdoors is just as safe in normal use as the £120 Joker. The budget Rock and Run cams have to pass the same tests as BD camalots, cheap prowires are stronger than the expensive BD Oz wiregates etc etc.
I built my rack up as a student one piece at a time. Every thing on it was a major investment for me. To keep the costs down, I advise that you trade off between lightweight and cost. You can buy some really cheap quickdraws but they weigh twice as much as something only slightly more expensive that will last you longer. DMM prowires are the budget wiregate/quickdraws of the moment. They are functional and pretty light - only a few years ago they were cutting edge, but DMM innovate quickly. For nuts, I would go for a set of classic WC rocks - much cheaper than the modern anodised ones, but do exactly the same job. Hexes are pretty much all the same, but save money by only buying certain sizes rather than a full set (opinions vary, but I never use my 3 or 4 rockcentrics, and the 9 only rarely). I have a set of budget cams (eg Rock and Run) that are approaching their 10th birthday. They cost half as much as the flash ones, but have served me well and I am only just replacing them now.
My biggest piece of advice to save money though, is to only buy what you need. Even a bargain is a waste of money if you don't need it.
In reply to Monk:
That's true but I'm not sure how relevant to the discussion. All cars sold in the UK likewise have to pass minimum standards in terms of crash testing etc. That doesn't alter the fact that some are generally thought to be safer than others. More importantly perhaps, it doesn't affect how good they are to drive and how long they last.
The same applies to climbing gear. All gear sold in the UK must be safe enough. That certainly doesn't make all gear equal. However, as you pointed out, the "best" gear is often not the most expensive.
Damn good advice.
> (In reply to marcbristol)
> all new gear sold in the UK has to pass minimum safety standards by law.
That's true but I'm not sure how relevant to the discussion. All cars sold in the UK likewise have to pass minimum standards in terms of crash testing etc. That doesn't alter the fact that some are generally thought to be safer than others. More importantly perhaps, it doesn't affect how good they are to drive and how long they last.
The same applies to climbing gear. All gear sold in the UK must be safe enough. That certainly doesn't make all gear equal. However, as you pointed out, the "best" gear is often not the most expensive.
> My biggest piece of advice to save money though, is to only buy what you need. Even a bargain is a waste of money if you don't need it.
Damn good advice.
In reply to Monk: hi .... if that is the only point you disagree on fair play .... but i have to disagree in that if you know you struggle on a hvs why be a c*ck and try to do a E3 for instants and end up in the crap? the point made was what ever you do do it safe. i take it you'll disagree with that as well? as for the kit comment on buy the best you can afford is relative to what you want to do ... i have climbed on wheel nuts threaded with static. it dont mean to say i would advise it.... the trouble with asking a simple question on a forum is the amount of shite fed back. the bottom line is its difficult to advise on anything but the most basic of kit as no one would have a clue as to what mr cowdreys aspirations are.
M
M
In reply to Mr-Cowdrey:
Harness, helmet, rope, HMS and belay have simply got to be new unless you know and trust where they have come from. These are often the only things between you and death and you want to be sure you have done everything possible to reasonbly minimise the chance of your demise. Shoes have a different fit than normal shoes, best to buy new so they are fitted properly and they stretch to your feet, not someone elses.
Gear, buy british, DMM or WC - Designed for british trad and just as good if not better than anything else.
The Alpkit draws linked by Mark are a superb deal, in fact 2 packs of them is all you need for hundreds of sport routes around the country. Watch for cams coming on the market at discounted prices, a lot of folk want to buy Dragons so will off load their old cams on here.
To be totally honest, the post 'cheap gear' is a no-brainer really, climbing gear in general has never been cheaper, think about what you are getting for your money and you'll know its already more than cheap!
Harness, helmet, rope, HMS and belay have simply got to be new unless you know and trust where they have come from. These are often the only things between you and death and you want to be sure you have done everything possible to reasonbly minimise the chance of your demise. Shoes have a different fit than normal shoes, best to buy new so they are fitted properly and they stretch to your feet, not someone elses.
Gear, buy british, DMM or WC - Designed for british trad and just as good if not better than anything else.
The Alpkit draws linked by Mark are a superb deal, in fact 2 packs of them is all you need for hundreds of sport routes around the country. Watch for cams coming on the market at discounted prices, a lot of folk want to buy Dragons so will off load their old cams on here.
To be totally honest, the post 'cheap gear' is a no-brainer really, climbing gear in general has never been cheaper, think about what you are getting for your money and you'll know its already more than cheap!
In reply to Mr-Cowdrey: excelent, thanks everyone. one last question: Zero G gear, to buy or not to buy?? its probably been asked on here sooo many times but oh well.
In reply to Mr-Cowdrey:
Never used it myself but know partners who do, it seems fine. Pays your money, takes ya choice! The are a reputable company if thats what you mean.
Never used it myself but know partners who do, it seems fine. Pays your money, takes ya choice! The are a reputable company if thats what you mean.
In reply to Mr-Cowdrey:
As a general rule: Assuming whatever you're looking at has a CE mark and comparable ratings to other products in its class (pretty much everything UK shop-available falls into this category)... function is everything. Some gear functions better than other bits and it's often not obvious which bits those will be. DMM (HB) Offsets for example. A plain, pretty ugly nut, looks unsophisticated (except the modern shiny finish) but it's nothing of the sort, it's one of the best nut designs ever. Don't dismiss anything, ask for comparisons from actual users, try things if you can, see what suits you. That's very much a general comment on all gear, I have nothing useful to add about Zero G, I've never used their kit.
Oh and I know you asked for cheap and this is probably not what you want to hear but I'll say it anyway, don't cut corners, buy right and buy once. Five pound saved now on a hundred quid purchase is nothing if the first thing you can do when you can afford to is replace the junk you bought in haste. Less high quality kit is better than more low quality kit, you acquire it slowly anyway. There is from a marketing perspective a drive to 'innovate' which often actually translates into tiny incremental advances and a new colour meaning previous model designs get sold off cheap. Thankfully some brilliant designs have endured for years in the bargain bins, things like DMM's Prowire. Basically as light and strong as a modern bells and whistles krab but nearly half the price.
As for second hand kit, I know someone has warned you off it and he does have a point but I know I'd consider pretty much everything bar a rope from a stranger pre-supposing I could view it first. Actually, I'd probably even buy rope but that's me, I couldn't really advise it. Lots of people (students especially) start out enthusiastic then sell on their kit pretty quickly, there's scope for a bargain there but I would avoid Ebay.
jk
> excelent, thanks everyone. one last question: Zero G gear, to buy or not to buy?? its probably been asked on here sooo many times but oh well.
As a general rule: Assuming whatever you're looking at has a CE mark and comparable ratings to other products in its class (pretty much everything UK shop-available falls into this category)... function is everything. Some gear functions better than other bits and it's often not obvious which bits those will be. DMM (HB) Offsets for example. A plain, pretty ugly nut, looks unsophisticated (except the modern shiny finish) but it's nothing of the sort, it's one of the best nut designs ever. Don't dismiss anything, ask for comparisons from actual users, try things if you can, see what suits you. That's very much a general comment on all gear, I have nothing useful to add about Zero G, I've never used their kit.
Oh and I know you asked for cheap and this is probably not what you want to hear but I'll say it anyway, don't cut corners, buy right and buy once. Five pound saved now on a hundred quid purchase is nothing if the first thing you can do when you can afford to is replace the junk you bought in haste. Less high quality kit is better than more low quality kit, you acquire it slowly anyway. There is from a marketing perspective a drive to 'innovate' which often actually translates into tiny incremental advances and a new colour meaning previous model designs get sold off cheap. Thankfully some brilliant designs have endured for years in the bargain bins, things like DMM's Prowire. Basically as light and strong as a modern bells and whistles krab but nearly half the price.
As for second hand kit, I know someone has warned you off it and he does have a point but I know I'd consider pretty much everything bar a rope from a stranger pre-supposing I could view it first. Actually, I'd probably even buy rope but that's me, I couldn't really advise it. Lots of people (students especially) start out enthusiastic then sell on their kit pretty quickly, there's scope for a bargain there but I would avoid Ebay.
jk
In reply to Mr-Cowdrey:
Zero G gear is fine. The screwgate krabs are actually very light compared to most brands. The gates are a little scratchier than on the DMM krabs (but then DMM are incredibly well made), but they work fine until they are old and dirty.
Zero G nuts are also ok, but beware - the sizes do not correlate to WC/DMM sizes. The smallest sizes are basically micros and weak, leaving only 8 nuts covering the WC 1-10 range.
Zero G ropes are the best product they do, I think. Nice ropes and have stood up to several years of club use just fine.
Zero G gear is fine. The screwgate krabs are actually very light compared to most brands. The gates are a little scratchier than on the DMM krabs (but then DMM are incredibly well made), but they work fine until they are old and dirty.
Zero G nuts are also ok, but beware - the sizes do not correlate to WC/DMM sizes. The smallest sizes are basically micros and weak, leaving only 8 nuts covering the WC 1-10 range.
Zero G ropes are the best product they do, I think. Nice ropes and have stood up to several years of club use just fine.
In reply to Mr-Cowdrey:
Usual range of condescending snobbish responses and some good comments that often get lost in the usual tripe. Having been in a similar position myself i can reccomend some of the following:
rock and run
alpkit
needles sports (not the cheapest, but definitly good for info and advice)
climbers shop (ambleside)
All of the above have good customer service, are reliable and reasonably well priced.
Usual range of condescending snobbish responses and some good comments that often get lost in the usual tripe. Having been in a similar position myself i can reccomend some of the following:
rock and run
alpkit
needles sports (not the cheapest, but definitly good for info and advice)
climbers shop (ambleside)
All of the above have good customer service, are reliable and reasonably well priced.
In reply to nightmonkeyuk: I also found the outdoor shop: http://www.theoutdoorshop.com to be very good. Usefully if you're a member of the BMC then you can get your discount online if you email them your membership details.
In reply to nightmonkeyuk: ive looked on all those sites, thanks, great suggestions. ive also been looking on joe brown as they have some really cheap deals atm.
regarding the Zero G nuts, how well do they seat?
regarding the Zero G nuts, how well do they seat?
In reply to Mr-Cowdrey:
i wouldnt know about the zero g's. i got a set of wild country nuts from rock and run. they seem to do the trick. inevitably, your going to get a range of opinions from people and you'll only have a certain amount of cash to splash so its a tricky one. is it worth holding off expanding the rack until you've seconded with a few different partners using different gear so you've developed an idea of your preference?
i wouldnt know about the zero g's. i got a set of wild country nuts from rock and run. they seem to do the trick. inevitably, your going to get a range of opinions from people and you'll only have a certain amount of cash to splash so its a tricky one. is it worth holding off expanding the rack until you've seconded with a few different partners using different gear so you've developed an idea of your preference?
In reply to Mr-Cowdrey: atm im leading with my main climbing partners gear, hes got a set of WC nuts and a few DMM one. the WC nuts seat really well, but i havnt got the money to buy a set. i was thinking maybe buying a set of Zero G to start out with, then when i leave college and get a better job ill be able to save up for a set of WC and DMM. im just eager to get my own gear so when he's not free im able to go climbing with my other partner.
In reply to Mr-Cowdrey:
50quid - cant get cheaper without the old 5 finger discount!
http://www.rockrun.com/products-Classic-Rock-Set_CL-HN-CLAS.htm
50quid - cant get cheaper without the old 5 finger discount!
http://www.rockrun.com/products-Classic-Rock-Set_CL-HN-CLAS.htm
In reply to Mr-Cowdrey:
Can you still get cheap uncoloured DMM Wallnuts? If so, speaking purely from personal experience that's where my first lot of money would go these days.
This is what I actually got 10+ years ago at less than I paid 10+ years ago. Astonishing value and still very good kit http://tinyurl.com/y934pfu (V12 website)
But then I'm not the Mr Cowdry, he may prefer something else altogether, that's the peril in buying before you try stuff.
jk
Can you still get cheap uncoloured DMM Wallnuts? If so, speaking purely from personal experience that's where my first lot of money would go these days.
This is what I actually got 10+ years ago at less than I paid 10+ years ago. Astonishing value and still very good kit http://tinyurl.com/y934pfu (V12 website)
But then I'm not the Mr Cowdry, he may prefer something else altogether, that's the peril in buying before you try stuff.
jk
In reply to nightmonkeyuk: now ive got to decide what to buy first, quickdraws or nuts. ive got a budget this week of £50 and that suits the bill quite nicely.
In reply to Mr-Cowdrey:
Get the draws and if things change over the next week and you can't afford the wires, you'll still be able to go sport climbing!
The rocks vs the wallnuts are like coke vs pepsi - both have dedicated followers and I'd say the UK standard by majority of users. A good tip, one I had to lean after years of using un-adonised wires, is learn the colours. i.e. the tip of my right index finger is exactly a rock 4, I can gauge a crack mainly by sight and a quick poke with my finger will tell me if its a 3, 4 or 5 crack, I then know exactly which colour to grab. Vital seconds saved on a gripping vdiff in the wind
Get the draws and if things change over the next week and you can't afford the wires, you'll still be able to go sport climbing!
The rocks vs the wallnuts are like coke vs pepsi - both have dedicated followers and I'd say the UK standard by majority of users. A good tip, one I had to lean after years of using un-adonised wires, is learn the colours. i.e. the tip of my right index finger is exactly a rock 4, I can gauge a crack mainly by sight and a quick poke with my finger will tell me if its a 3, 4 or 5 crack, I then know exactly which colour to grab. Vital seconds saved on a gripping vdiff in the wind
In reply to blanchie14c: thats a nice trick, ill try it next time i rack up and quickdraws it is,thanks
In reply to Mr-Cowdrey: i can get 2 sets of nuts (WC classic rocks and DMM wallnuts) for roughly the same price as ONE set of metolius nuts. how does that work, are metolius nuts really that good, ive heard they are quite soft and dont seat as well as others. btw im looking on http://www.joe-brown.com/index.php?orderby=product_price&DescOrderBy=AS... for those of you who want to have a look
In reply to Mr-Cowdrey:
Exchange rates, import duty, market forces. No, of course they're not twice as good, as various people have mentioned, price and functionality/safety are very very loosely linked.
jk
Exchange rates, import duty, market forces. No, of course they're not twice as good, as various people have mentioned, price and functionality/safety are very very loosely linked.
jk
In reply to Mr-Cowdrey:
I'm sure they seat fine and are perfectly usable, however I have found the wires to be more bendy than Rocks and Wallnuts, which may make them slightly trickier to place at arms length. Also, remember that the sizes are different in Zero G nuts and you get a few microwires that you won't need, leaving you with only 8 usable nuts, compared to 10 if you buy the classic WC rocks that someone has linked to above. Personally i would go for the rocks, unless you can get the Zero G nuts really cheap.
> (In reply to nightmonkeyuk)
> regarding the Zero G nuts, how well do they seat?
I'm sure they seat fine and are perfectly usable, however I have found the wires to be more bendy than Rocks and Wallnuts, which may make them slightly trickier to place at arms length. Also, remember that the sizes are different in Zero G nuts and you get a few microwires that you won't need, leaving you with only 8 usable nuts, compared to 10 if you buy the classic WC rocks that someone has linked to above. Personally i would go for the rocks, unless you can get the Zero G nuts really cheap.
In reply to Mr-Cowdrey: ok, im thinking the WC nuts, then maybe a set of DMM wallnuts when money isnt an issue. thanks everyone for the advice.
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