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I have just read an article on an apparent shortage of workers due to demographics in the manufacturing, robotics industry according to a global employer survey.
How can this be possibly true when there are almost 7 bn of us, and real wages are falling whilst more people go to university than ever before?
How can this be possibly true when there are almost 7 bn of us, and real wages are falling whilst more people go to university than ever before?
In reply to The Ice Doctor:
Perhaps it's a shortage of workers with the required skillset?
There's no shortage of people in the UK for example, but certain sectors have had to look to other countries for people with the right skill sets.
A guy I know of employs a Swede, a Brazilian, an Iranian, and in the past a Russian in his engineering company in the UK, almost a third of the people in the office.
Perhaps it's a shortage of workers with the required skillset?
There's no shortage of people in the UK for example, but certain sectors have had to look to other countries for people with the right skill sets.
A guy I know of employs a Swede, a Brazilian, an Iranian, and in the past a Russian in his engineering company in the UK, almost a third of the people in the office.
Post edited at 20:16
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In reply to Timmd:
What Timmd says, it's often hard to get good people with the skillset you want/need.
What Timmd says, it's often hard to get good people with the skillset you want/need.
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In reply to The Ice Doctor:
What courses are students choosing to study , or being encouraged to study at university, are they coming out with a skillset that is useful to a manufacturing industry?
> I have just read an article on an apparent shortage of workers due to demographics in the manufacturing, robotics industry according to a global employer survey.How can this be possibly true when there are almost 7 bn of us, and real wages are falling whilst more people go to university than ever before?
What courses are students choosing to study , or being encouraged to study at university, are they coming out with a skillset that is useful to a manufacturing industry?
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In reply to mattrm:
At the moment I am finding this exceptionally hard.
Been looking for months for a vacuum and blower service engineer with no luck at all.
I am offering a few K above the going rate, pension, van with private use, training and a profit share.
It's a very niche industry though and due to a guy I sacked for gross misconduct I am too short handed to train someone from scratch so I need an experienced person who I can train on our specific brand.
> What Timmd says, it's often hard to get good people with the skillset you want/need.
At the moment I am finding this exceptionally hard.
Been looking for months for a vacuum and blower service engineer with no luck at all.
I am offering a few K above the going rate, pension, van with private use, training and a profit share.
It's a very niche industry though and due to a guy I sacked for gross misconduct I am too short handed to train someone from scratch so I need an experienced person who I can train on our specific brand.
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In reply to Dax H:
Oh come on, you're bowling pies there!
> Been looking for months for a vacuum and blower service engineer with no luck at all.
Oh come on, you're bowling pies there!
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In reply to The Ice Doctor:
Most employable people are now employed; we have reached the bottom of the barrel and those remaining unemployed are not able to work. Many with skills have left the country, attracted by better money overseas. My own brother is a well-qualified mechanical engineer, trained by two British universities and two British companies, who now gives his energy and skills to a German company operating in Michigan.
The company opposite my office is in the competitive world of plastic injection-moulding and has just about survived the recession in manufacturing by recruiting east European workers. I can't help wondering if that puts them on the same trajectory as the Lancashire cotton mills who tried to reduce costs by employing workers from the Indian sub-continent.
Most employable people are now employed; we have reached the bottom of the barrel and those remaining unemployed are not able to work. Many with skills have left the country, attracted by better money overseas. My own brother is a well-qualified mechanical engineer, trained by two British universities and two British companies, who now gives his energy and skills to a German company operating in Michigan.
The company opposite my office is in the competitive world of plastic injection-moulding and has just about survived the recession in manufacturing by recruiting east European workers. I can't help wondering if that puts them on the same trajectory as the Lancashire cotton mills who tried to reduce costs by employing workers from the Indian sub-continent.
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In reply to Rigid Raider:
>The company opposite my office is in the competitive world of plastic injection-moulding and has just about survived the recession in manufacturing by recruiting east European workers. I can't help wondering if that puts them on the same trajectory as the Lancashire cotton mills who tried to reduce costs by employing workers from the Indian sub-continent.
This is the problem with globalisation, it will be cheaper to produce the mouldings in a country with low salaries and poor H&S rules and import them than make them here. Until the imbalance of costs changes, the wealthier developed nations will struggle to compete.
>The company opposite my office is in the competitive world of plastic injection-moulding and has just about survived the recession in manufacturing by recruiting east European workers. I can't help wondering if that puts them on the same trajectory as the Lancashire cotton mills who tried to reduce costs by employing workers from the Indian sub-continent.
This is the problem with globalisation, it will be cheaper to produce the mouldings in a country with low salaries and poor H&S rules and import them than make them here. Until the imbalance of costs changes, the wealthier developed nations will struggle to compete.
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In reply to Jim C:
Exactly. My company is in need of software engineers with experience of programming C++ & Java in an embedded Linux environment. Strangely, despite the fact that "more people go to university than ever before", sports journalism and media studies graduates don't tend to do so well at interview.
> What courses are students choosing to study , or being encouraged to study at university, are they coming out with a skillset that is useful to a manufacturing industry?
Exactly. My company is in need of software engineers with experience of programming C++ & Java in an embedded Linux environment. Strangely, despite the fact that "more people go to university than ever before", sports journalism and media studies graduates don't tend to do so well at interview.
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In reply to hokkyokusei:
perhaps. There again my daughter who has just finished her final year in computer science has been surprised at the lack of engagement by software companies with universities considering there is a " skills shortage" in software.That is of course apart from the obvious names.
perhaps. There again my daughter who has just finished her final year in computer science has been surprised at the lack of engagement by software companies with universities considering there is a " skills shortage" in software.That is of course apart from the obvious names.
In reply to The Ice Doctor:
Universities in the UK regard students as their customers, not industry, or even society in general - because the money comes with the student.
Far too many people who go to University do not want a "hard" subject in which to get their degree - you can read into that what you will, I leave it to you.
Ergo not enough people in the UK have the skillset required by industry.
Even when students do get a degree in Engineering, they frequently need almost complete retraining to be any use in the workplace.
Universities in the UK regard students as their customers, not industry, or even society in general - because the money comes with the student.
Far too many people who go to University do not want a "hard" subject in which to get their degree - you can read into that what you will, I leave it to you.
Ergo not enough people in the UK have the skillset required by industry.
Even when students do get a degree in Engineering, they frequently need almost complete retraining to be any use in the workplace.
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In reply to neilh:
Yes, in the past, companies did far more to train people from the age of 16 or 18. Now, to a much greater degree, leave the state and the student to train themselves to age 21, then want the graduates to meet their requirements.
If they sponsored individual students maybe they would find more students taking the courses they require.
If they engaged with the universities, maybe they would find the courses fitted more closely with their requirements.
Yes, in the past, companies did far more to train people from the age of 16 or 18. Now, to a much greater degree, leave the state and the student to train themselves to age 21, then want the graduates to meet their requirements.
If they sponsored individual students maybe they would find more students taking the courses they require.
If they engaged with the universities, maybe they would find the courses fitted more closely with their requirements.
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In reply to fred99:
Not to sure your comment is right on Engineering.From what I have seen-- exactly the opposite - and more importantly they have been allowed free rein in their roles.
Not to sure your comment is right on Engineering.From what I have seen-- exactly the opposite - and more importantly they have been allowed free rein in their roles.
In reply to Dax H:
Good luck with getting a blow job.
> Been looking for months for a vacuum and blower service engineer with no luck at all.
Good luck with getting a blow job.
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In reply to hokkyokusei:
The answer is for companies ( like the one I used to work for before retiring) getting back to offering support to students via the unis to study those courses, but all the companies sit back and hope that others will pay the expensive training/ education bit, and then poach the talent. But if no company does anything, then there is no one for those jobs.
> Exactly. My company is in need of software engineers with experience of programming C++ & Java in an embedded Linux environment. Strangely, despite the fact that "more people go to university than ever before", sports journalism and media studies graduates don't tend to do so well at interview.
The answer is for companies ( like the one I used to work for before retiring) getting back to offering support to students via the unis to study those courses, but all the companies sit back and hope that others will pay the expensive training/ education bit, and then poach the talent. But if no company does anything, then there is no one for those jobs.
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In reply to Jim C:
My thoughts exactly. There was an item on the local radio on the lines that the local ambulance trust were taking on paramedics. In reality they wanted people to pay for their own uni degree with the glittering prize of a 'guaranteed interview' at the end.
I can see that a degree in maths, physics etc is transferrable to a range of jobs and could be viewed as an investment by the person undertaking the degree. However purely vocational training for a niche role isn't transferrable to the same extent. The companies who seek to benefit from this training should support candidates who undertake it.
> The answer is for companies ( like the one I used to work for before retiring) getting back to offering support to students via the unis to study those courses, but all the companies sit back and hope that others will pay the expensive training/ education bit, and then poach the talent. But if no company does anything, then there is no one for those jobs.
My thoughts exactly. There was an item on the local radio on the lines that the local ambulance trust were taking on paramedics. In reality they wanted people to pay for their own uni degree with the glittering prize of a 'guaranteed interview' at the end.
I can see that a degree in maths, physics etc is transferrable to a range of jobs and could be viewed as an investment by the person undertaking the degree. However purely vocational training for a niche role isn't transferrable to the same extent. The companies who seek to benefit from this training should support candidates who undertake it.
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In reply to hokkyokusei:
See URL - are you competitive with £300-£500 day rates and £35k-£45k salaries on offer?
https://www.indeed.co.uk/jobs?q=Java&l=yorkshire
You have 5 criteria: experience; Java; C++; embedded and Linux. That sounds typical of companies that have difficulty recruiting and probably means you need to compete at the top end of the pay scales.
Can you not convert some of the criteria from essential to desirable? If you look for experience and Java or C++ and embedded or Linux the talent pool may be five times bigger.
You want experience so are you actually interested in Universities rather than recruitment agencies?
If you are, what are you doing to engage with students? What are you doing to engage with comp sci depts?
A couple of local companies I know run hackathons to attract graduate applicants. Others mentor Honours projects or sponsor a prize. Are you fostering practical experience and finding talent by mentoring student projects in embedded C++, Java or Linux? Do you offer paid internships or industrial years so students could get that experience you want? Are you running a £1000 prize fund for best embedded, C++ or Java project at any Yorkshire University? Do job ads explicitly mention that new/recent graduates should apply or do they ignore you because ads specify experience?
£1k is peanuts compared to a recruitment agent or £400 day rates.
You can't do all those but any of them would boost company profile with students or develop student skills & experience in the areas you're interested in.
When I say "you" I mainly mean the company.
I know somebody in Yorkshire with long experience of embedded (DSP & ECU) but possibly C rather than C++ or Java. If that's an interesting skillset PM the company name, job spec or job URL and I'll pass it on.
PS do you network with experienced developers by hosting, sponsoring or attending Java, C++ or Linux meetups?
> Exactly. My company is in need of software engineers with experience of programming C++ & Java in an embedded Linux environment.
See URL - are you competitive with £300-£500 day rates and £35k-£45k salaries on offer?
https://www.indeed.co.uk/jobs?q=Java&l=yorkshire
You have 5 criteria: experience; Java; C++; embedded and Linux. That sounds typical of companies that have difficulty recruiting and probably means you need to compete at the top end of the pay scales.
Can you not convert some of the criteria from essential to desirable? If you look for experience and Java or C++ and embedded or Linux the talent pool may be five times bigger.
You want experience so are you actually interested in Universities rather than recruitment agencies?
If you are, what are you doing to engage with students? What are you doing to engage with comp sci depts?
A couple of local companies I know run hackathons to attract graduate applicants. Others mentor Honours projects or sponsor a prize. Are you fostering practical experience and finding talent by mentoring student projects in embedded C++, Java or Linux? Do you offer paid internships or industrial years so students could get that experience you want? Are you running a £1000 prize fund for best embedded, C++ or Java project at any Yorkshire University? Do job ads explicitly mention that new/recent graduates should apply or do they ignore you because ads specify experience?
£1k is peanuts compared to a recruitment agent or £400 day rates.
You can't do all those but any of them would boost company profile with students or develop student skills & experience in the areas you're interested in.
When I say "you" I mainly mean the company.
I know somebody in Yorkshire with long experience of embedded (DSP & ECU) but possibly C rather than C++ or Java. If that's an interesting skillset PM the company name, job spec or job URL and I'll pass it on.
PS do you network with experienced developers by hosting, sponsoring or attending Java, C++ or Linux meetups?
Post edited at 20:39
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In reply to Ridge:
People are obviously not skilled up the right areas. They believe the bullshit of an easy life that doesn't exist. The country needs engineers with real skills. Engineers is what we need. We've lost a decade of youth. Sad, but true.
The UK has sold its soul to short termism. The sad thing is that we will be importing experts, forget the bullshit this government are coming out with.
People are obviously not skilled up the right areas. They believe the bullshit of an easy life that doesn't exist. The country needs engineers with real skills. Engineers is what we need. We've lost a decade of youth. Sad, but true.
The UK has sold its soul to short termism. The sad thing is that we will be importing experts, forget the bullshit this government are coming out with.
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In reply to The Ice Doctor:
Completely agree. Why have none of the parties currently fishing for votes suggested fully funding degrees in medicine, engineering, programming etc. Paid for by doubling tuition fees for media studies etc.
> People are obviously not skilled up the right areas. They believe the bullshit of an easy life that doesn't exist. The country needs engineers with real skills. Engineers is what we need. We've lost a decade of youth. Sad, but true. The UK has sold its soul to short termism. The sad thing is that we will be importing experts, forget the bullshit this government are coming out with.
Completely agree. Why have none of the parties currently fishing for votes suggested fully funding degrees in medicine, engineering, programming etc. Paid for by doubling tuition fees for media studies etc.
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In reply to The Ice Doctor:
I agree and disagree
As hokkyokusei said, many companies have utterly unrealistic expectations for what they're offering in return. Employers need to take some responsibity for attracting the right candidates and encouraging undergrads and apprentices to study these hard subjects.
However I've worked for companies where colouring in powerpoint slides and a complete inabilty to structure a coherent sentence appears to be a far more desirable 'skillset' than being a methodical, analytical engineer. That's purely the company's fault.
Agree totally about the short termism.
> People are obviously not skilled up the right areas. They believe the bullshit of an easy life that doesn't exist. The country needs engineers with real skills. Engineers is what we need. We've lost a decade of youth. Sad, but true. The UK has sold its soul to short termism. The sad thing is that we will be importing experts, forget the bullshit this government are coming out with.
I agree and disagree
As hokkyokusei said, many companies have utterly unrealistic expectations for what they're offering in return. Employers need to take some responsibity for attracting the right candidates and encouraging undergrads and apprentices to study these hard subjects.
However I've worked for companies where colouring in powerpoint slides and a complete inabilty to structure a coherent sentence appears to be a far more desirable 'skillset' than being a methodical, analytical engineer. That's purely the company's fault.
Agree totally about the short termism.
Post edited at 20:52
In reply to Stichtplate:
That goes against the perceived wisdom that any degree is far, far more useful that whatever the equivalent of ONC/HNC is these days. Or that a degree in policing, nursing, paramedicing etc is more important than actually being able to do the job.
> Why have none of the parties currently fishing for votes suggested fully funding degrees in medicine, engineering, programming etc. Paid for by doubling tuition fees for media studies etc.
That goes against the perceived wisdom that any degree is far, far more useful that whatever the equivalent of ONC/HNC is these days. Or that a degree in policing, nursing, paramedicing etc is more important than actually being able to do the job.
In reply to Ridge:
>Or that a degree in policing, nursing, paramedicing etc is more important than actually being able to do the job.
If I was going to put my tin foil hat on I might think all this insistence on student debt is a good way of turning public servants into indentured servants.
>Or that a degree in policing, nursing, paramedicing etc is more important than actually being able to do the job.
If I was going to put my tin foil hat on I might think all this insistence on student debt is a good way of turning public servants into indentured servants.
Post edited at 21:18
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In reply to neilh:
Tell her there are 2 companies (CGI & somebody I've forgotten) in Glasgow each with 200 Java unfilled Java roles. In addition there's JPMorgan (lots including Java), Morgan Stanley (lots including Java), Skyscanner (everything) and Aggreko (.NET Core, Azure).
With commercial experience salaries at top end £45k-90k.
Tell her there are 2 companies (CGI & somebody I've forgotten) in Glasgow each with 200 Java unfilled Java roles. In addition there's JPMorgan (lots including Java), Morgan Stanley (lots including Java), Skyscanner (everything) and Aggreko (.NET Core, Azure).
With commercial experience salaries at top end £45k-90k.
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In reply to The Ice Doctor:
The brutal truth is that many people who graduate are still not good enough to be employed in top engineering roles. For a company to be competitive it has to strive for employees who are probably top quartile.
The brutal truth is that many people who graduate are still not good enough to be employed in top engineering roles. For a company to be competitive it has to strive for employees who are probably top quartile.
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In reply to hokkyokusei:
My daughter's boyfriend is in such demand for his skills, as above, he's coining more in wages after 6 years in the field than I am after 30 years in mine. Last month he was sent to Fiji to troubleshoot a system, in August they're sending him for a month, all expenses paid, to Tuvalu.
http://www.oceanislandtravel.com/pictures/Tuvalu%20Island%20(7).jpg
> Exactly. My company is in need of software engineers with experience of programming C++ & Java in an embedded Linux environment.
My daughter's boyfriend is in such demand for his skills, as above, he's coining more in wages after 6 years in the field than I am after 30 years in mine. Last month he was sent to Fiji to troubleshoot a system, in August they're sending him for a month, all expenses paid, to Tuvalu.
http://www.oceanislandtravel.com/pictures/Tuvalu%20Island%20(7).jpg
In reply to wbo:
Yes. JPMorgan & Morgan Stanley have graduate programmes. Morgan Stanley do industry years and recruit heavily from that. You have apply at the right time of year (Oct?) for the following summer.
CGI - I think so.
The others I know less well.
> Are they prepared to hire/train people without commercial experience?
Yes. JPMorgan & Morgan Stanley have graduate programmes. Morgan Stanley do industry years and recruit heavily from that. You have apply at the right time of year (Oct?) for the following summer.
CGI - I think so.
The others I know less well.
Post edited at 23:47
In reply to Big Ger:
Sorry but in which world would all expenses not be paid on a long term away-from-home work trip? Is"all expenses paid" becoming one of those phrases like "wall to wall carpeting"?
> they're sending him for a month, all expenses paid, to Tuvalu.http://www.oceanislandtravel.com/pictures/Tuvalu%20Island%20(7).jpg
Sorry but in which world would all expenses not be paid on a long term away-from-home work trip? Is"all expenses paid" becoming one of those phrases like "wall to wall carpeting"?
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In reply to Big Ger:
Sorry but in which world would all expenses not be paid on a long term away-from-home work trip? Is"all expenses paid" becoming one of those phrases like "wall to wall carpeting"?
> they're sending him for a month, all expenses paid, to Tuvalu.http://www.oceanislandtravel.com/pictures/Tuvalu%20Island%20(7).jpg
Sorry but in which world would all expenses not be paid on a long term away-from-home work trip? Is"all expenses paid" becoming one of those phrases like "wall to wall carpeting"?
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In reply to Blue Straggler:
Quite possibly, but I was using it in the "all expenses paid holiday" sense.
> Sorry but in which world would all expenses not be paid on a long term away-from-home work trip? Is"all expenses paid" becoming one of those phrases like "wall to wall carpeting"?
Quite possibly, but I was using it in the "all expenses paid holiday" sense.
In reply to The Ice Doctor:
Most of this sort of stuff is total b0110cks.
Take the many years of supposed LGV driver shortage for instance. So these guys have got to pay for the training to get their licence and then pay for Driver CPC every five years and pay for their digitacho cards and their medicals. So maybe if you get a grip on reality and stop paying large numbers of them £7.75 an hour there might not be a problem. We'll get some clown on here in a minute saying his mate is on £40k pa driving tankers but the reality is that your internet shopping, your bread and bacon, and your gardening supplies are shifted around the country by people on rubbish money and dodgy contracts.
That's just one example from a dodgy basket case economy run by people who are self-employed because they're unemployable.
Most of this sort of stuff is total b0110cks.
Take the many years of supposed LGV driver shortage for instance. So these guys have got to pay for the training to get their licence and then pay for Driver CPC every five years and pay for their digitacho cards and their medicals. So maybe if you get a grip on reality and stop paying large numbers of them £7.75 an hour there might not be a problem. We'll get some clown on here in a minute saying his mate is on £40k pa driving tankers but the reality is that your internet shopping, your bread and bacon, and your gardening supplies are shifted around the country by people on rubbish money and dodgy contracts.
That's just one example from a dodgy basket case economy run by people who are self-employed because they're unemployable.
1
In reply to Blue Straggler:
When we were on away from home work trips we had a set allowance per day for meals. It was generous for a normal meal. We had a hire car and fuel, and a basic hotel. It certainly wasn't 'all expenses paid'.
When we were on away from home work trips we had a set allowance per day for meals. It was generous for a normal meal. We had a hire car and fuel, and a basic hotel. It certainly wasn't 'all expenses paid'.
In reply to elsewhere:
The big banks ... have an image problem for 21 year old females in computer science . Just like the accountancy firms. Will not even entertain looking there.
The big banks ... have an image problem for 21 year old females in computer science . Just like the accountancy firms. Will not even entertain looking there.
In reply to The Ice Doctor:
Well, one issue is probably that by the time people go to university their skill set is often fairly limited.
My son is doing science 1st year and he already has a job lined up for when he finishes, the company is providing a bursary and work experience every summer.
My own experience after graduating was fairly good for on the job training, although starting on a low salary, once a bit of experience was gained that changed.
My feeling now is there seems to be a mismatch, high expectations on both sides, graduates wanting high starting salary and companies not willing to train up.
Well, one issue is probably that by the time people go to university their skill set is often fairly limited.
My son is doing science 1st year and he already has a job lined up for when he finishes, the company is providing a bursary and work experience every summer.
My own experience after graduating was fairly good for on the job training, although starting on a low salary, once a bit of experience was gained that changed.
My feeling now is there seems to be a mismatch, high expectations on both sides, graduates wanting high starting salary and companies not willing to train up.
In reply to The Ice Doctor:
Back in the 1980s the conservative government cut most state support for technical apprentiships and graduate apprentiships (I did mine with Plessey, one of the last batches through). By the mid 1990s the 'free market' in University education was in full swing and Engineering being both hard and expensive and not linked to school A level subjects and hardly ever sponsored anymore suffered a massive UK student recruitment hit and really good departments closed down across the UK (like many good Maths, Chemistry and Physics departments) and cheap 'classroom' subjects that pandered to prospective student whims and yet had very poor job prosects were full to the seams. In 2004 my engineering courses were closed despite very healthy overseas income and my job was only just saved despite highly significant success and having run overseas linked courses that made the University millions of profit and the UK export market (where total overseas student spending is counted) many times that.
The years passed and I now teach technology (Engineering in disguise) in a Computing and Technology department. Degree show day today and loads of employers were attending and offering jobs to our students who were mainly displaying really good work. In all my years of sandwich placement visits (we typically have around a third of our students out for a whole year in well paid work) most are offered graduate jobs with very few placements ending with problems. My STEM school has many PhDs but hardly any are Brits except in Sport Science. Graduate STEM numbers are a bit higher than when I started but not that much. Large numbers of our graduates are tempted by the larger salaries in finance institutions or from other well paid professions looking for good nuneracy and planning skills so the country faces a huge skill gap in our manufactuing sector, even at the lowish GDP % that exists today. It fills this gap with Europeans and International rectruitment.
Non degree HE and FE technical qualifications were regularly excellent when I started. These days it is usually so dumbed down that even good keen students struggle when they hit the hard realities of accredited degree courses. Maths standards are especially worrying for BTEC students. Industrial training systems that are properly funded powerhouses in say Germany, mainly look like barely survival funded con tricks in the UK.
The recent apprentiship initiatives are mainly sticking plaster... funding levels are way too low and too many players are clueless in what to do, so there will be loads of teething problems in a pretty small UK structural improvement before things settle. Too little too late? Engineering has reopened at my place with much grateful local industrial help but more in competition in the UK market... there is no UK admissions numbers boom. Nothing less than major fee incentives will meet likley demand in 3 to 5 years. STEM staff are nearly twice as efficent in SSR teaching terms now than the mid 80s and the job has never been tougher and due to get much worse with the (wrong) KPI obsessions of TEF. I'm part of a demographic bulge and like thousands of other STEM academics may retire early as our pensions (despite a best from 10 year index linked averaging clause) take a hit from 2018. Who trains the future engineers?.... over a third of my current team are non UK citizens and most of them are getting very nervous and some have already gone as they wont tolerate things like their kids being told to go back home (and sometimes much worse bullying) in school.
Governments since 1980 made the mess we are in and with Brexit it's about to get a whole lot worse unless the rhetoric turns out to be BS. Who will fill the gaps if immigration has to drop.. even if a plan is made who will encourage those back we have scared off.
My students of course have excellent prospects, I tell them not to undersell themselves but they also have a hell of a lot of debt to pay off. Thanks to austerity and the hit on the pound, salaries for most of the best skilled graduates in the UK are falling way behind European and other major western economies (who also often want to fill their skill gaps). Buying a house early in the UK needs help from a rich familiy (I got mine on my own as a PhD student). Pensions are worth way less. The state schools and the health service are noticably crumbling at the edges.. old age care costs for the middle classes are increasing ever upwards. For those looking to work in the UK in Engineering my generation had things so much better and people wonder why we have a problem? Thank goodness for strong stable leadership likely taking us out of free movement, imagine how bad things could have been in Engineering without it (please excuse the sarcasm).
Back in the 1980s the conservative government cut most state support for technical apprentiships and graduate apprentiships (I did mine with Plessey, one of the last batches through). By the mid 1990s the 'free market' in University education was in full swing and Engineering being both hard and expensive and not linked to school A level subjects and hardly ever sponsored anymore suffered a massive UK student recruitment hit and really good departments closed down across the UK (like many good Maths, Chemistry and Physics departments) and cheap 'classroom' subjects that pandered to prospective student whims and yet had very poor job prosects were full to the seams. In 2004 my engineering courses were closed despite very healthy overseas income and my job was only just saved despite highly significant success and having run overseas linked courses that made the University millions of profit and the UK export market (where total overseas student spending is counted) many times that.
The years passed and I now teach technology (Engineering in disguise) in a Computing and Technology department. Degree show day today and loads of employers were attending and offering jobs to our students who were mainly displaying really good work. In all my years of sandwich placement visits (we typically have around a third of our students out for a whole year in well paid work) most are offered graduate jobs with very few placements ending with problems. My STEM school has many PhDs but hardly any are Brits except in Sport Science. Graduate STEM numbers are a bit higher than when I started but not that much. Large numbers of our graduates are tempted by the larger salaries in finance institutions or from other well paid professions looking for good nuneracy and planning skills so the country faces a huge skill gap in our manufactuing sector, even at the lowish GDP % that exists today. It fills this gap with Europeans and International rectruitment.
Non degree HE and FE technical qualifications were regularly excellent when I started. These days it is usually so dumbed down that even good keen students struggle when they hit the hard realities of accredited degree courses. Maths standards are especially worrying for BTEC students. Industrial training systems that are properly funded powerhouses in say Germany, mainly look like barely survival funded con tricks in the UK.
The recent apprentiship initiatives are mainly sticking plaster... funding levels are way too low and too many players are clueless in what to do, so there will be loads of teething problems in a pretty small UK structural improvement before things settle. Too little too late? Engineering has reopened at my place with much grateful local industrial help but more in competition in the UK market... there is no UK admissions numbers boom. Nothing less than major fee incentives will meet likley demand in 3 to 5 years. STEM staff are nearly twice as efficent in SSR teaching terms now than the mid 80s and the job has never been tougher and due to get much worse with the (wrong) KPI obsessions of TEF. I'm part of a demographic bulge and like thousands of other STEM academics may retire early as our pensions (despite a best from 10 year index linked averaging clause) take a hit from 2018. Who trains the future engineers?.... over a third of my current team are non UK citizens and most of them are getting very nervous and some have already gone as they wont tolerate things like their kids being told to go back home (and sometimes much worse bullying) in school.
Governments since 1980 made the mess we are in and with Brexit it's about to get a whole lot worse unless the rhetoric turns out to be BS. Who will fill the gaps if immigration has to drop.. even if a plan is made who will encourage those back we have scared off.
My students of course have excellent prospects, I tell them not to undersell themselves but they also have a hell of a lot of debt to pay off. Thanks to austerity and the hit on the pound, salaries for most of the best skilled graduates in the UK are falling way behind European and other major western economies (who also often want to fill their skill gaps). Buying a house early in the UK needs help from a rich familiy (I got mine on my own as a PhD student). Pensions are worth way less. The state schools and the health service are noticably crumbling at the edges.. old age care costs for the middle classes are increasing ever upwards. For those looking to work in the UK in Engineering my generation had things so much better and people wonder why we have a problem? Thank goodness for strong stable leadership likely taking us out of free movement, imagine how bad things could have been in Engineering without it (please excuse the sarcasm).
Post edited at 20:13
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In reply to Offwidth:
A heck of an explanation of how the engineering profession got to its current position. Probably worth noting that some employers for graduate engineers also don't have a clue how to effectively utilise them or bother investing that much in them which seems to chase a good number away as well. Lots of companies won't look twice at someone without an MSc or an MEng these days.
A heck of an explanation of how the engineering profession got to its current position. Probably worth noting that some employers for graduate engineers also don't have a clue how to effectively utilise them or bother investing that much in them which seems to chase a good number away as well. Lots of companies won't look twice at someone without an MSc or an MEng these days.
In reply to The Ice Doctor: things like robotics are rapidly growing, high demand niches that are difficult, add in a demand for experience and abilities to start now and be effective and its hard to get people. It doesn't matter how many people there are in the world, all but a few hundred are totally useless/irrelevant to the job. I know one automation engineer who left one oil company job and stepped straight into another for a large pay rise and that doesn't happen every day nowadays (and large means circa 25k)
Sometimes you can wait and train someone , sometimes you need them right now. If it's the latter you're going to pay fo it
Sometimes you can wait and train someone , sometimes you need them right now. If it's the latter you're going to pay fo it
In reply to Blue Straggler:
No worries, as us colonials say.
I must say I'm envious of him, the only pity is he cannot take my daughter along with him. She could, (or we could,) pay her own way, but she's holding down three jobs, as well as studying at Uni. It does look rather nice;
http://www.dxcoffee.com/eng/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/tuvalu-funafuti.jpg
No worries, as us colonials say.
I must say I'm envious of him, the only pity is he cannot take my daughter along with him. She could, (or we could,) pay her own way, but she's holding down three jobs, as well as studying at Uni. It does look rather nice;
http://www.dxcoffee.com/eng/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/tuvalu-funafuti.jpg
In reply to Jim C:
Well, we are engaged with universities, we offer placements and support in the final year and jobs on graduation, but the amount we can do in that direction is limited, and certainly won't fulfill all of our resource requirement for our current growth.
> The answer is for companies ( like the one I used to work for before retiring) getting back to offering support to students via the unis to study those courses, but all the companies sit back and hope that others will pay the expensive training/ education bit, and then poach the talent. But if no company does anything, then there is no one for those jobs.
Well, we are engaged with universities, we offer placements and support in the final year and jobs on graduation, but the amount we can do in that direction is limited, and certainly won't fulfill all of our resource requirement for our current growth.
In reply to elsewhere:
We don't have problems sourcing contract labour. Our salaries are in the range £35-55k.
Yeah, we do that.
We do both.
We take placement students and , if they are any good, we offer them jobs on graduation.
We recruit at all levels.
Low level C programmers aren't hard to find. P.M. sent however.
> See URL - are you competitive with £300-£500 day rates and £35k-£45k salaries on offer?https://www.indeed.co.uk/jobs?q=Java&l=yorkshire
We don't have problems sourcing contract labour. Our salaries are in the range £35-55k.
> You have 5 criteria: experience; Java; C++; embedded and Linux. That sounds typical of companies that have difficulty recruiting and probably means you need to compete at the top end of the pay scales. Can you not convert some of the criteria from essential to desirable? If you look for experience and Java or C++ and embedded or Linux the talent pool may be five times bigger.
Yeah, we do that.
> You want experience so are you actually interested in Universities rather than recruitment agencies? ...
We do both.
We take placement students and , if they are any good, we offer them jobs on graduation.
> Do job ads explicitly mention that new/recent graduates should apply or do they ignore you because ads specify experience?£1k is peanuts compared to a recruitment agent or £400 day rates.
We recruit at all levels.
> I know somebody in Yorkshire with long experience of embedded (DSP & ECU) but possibly C rather than C++ or Java. If that's an interesting skillset PM the company name, job spec or job URL and I'll pass it on.
Low level C programmers aren't hard to find. P.M. sent however.
In reply to Offwidth:
Of course you have to balance that view. I deal with a heavily govt funded dept at one of the uks top universities in composites. The prof in charge basically says there is a worldwide shortage of engineers. It is not a unique uk issue. He also said that courses in day aeronautical engineering for example are heavily oversubscribed in the U.K. Also that some engineering departments have had to close as the particular technology is well out of date. So there are no jobs for students in that area anyway .
Of course you have to balance that view. I deal with a heavily govt funded dept at one of the uks top universities in composites. The prof in charge basically says there is a worldwide shortage of engineers. It is not a unique uk issue. He also said that courses in day aeronautical engineering for example are heavily oversubscribed in the U.K. Also that some engineering departments have had to close as the particular technology is well out of date. So there are no jobs for students in that area anyway .
In reply to hokkyokusei:
Looks like you're doing loads of things including university connections to get talent.
Sorry if I was teaching granny to suck eggs, I'm just so used to telling companies to make the job ads less scary & more flexible when they're struggling for applications!
Looks like a good company doing interesting stuff.
I've passed on the URL. They do hardware too.
Thanks very much.
Looks like you're doing loads of things including university connections to get talent.
Sorry if I was teaching granny to suck eggs, I'm just so used to telling companies to make the job ads less scary & more flexible when they're struggling for applications!
Looks like a good company doing interesting stuff.
I've passed on the URL. They do hardware too.
Thanks very much.
Post edited at 12:51
In reply to neilh:
We advertise our placements and graduate opportunities with 16 universities that have Computer Science or Software Engineering departments.
> How wide is your of net of universities?
We advertise our placements and graduate opportunities with 16 universities that have Computer Science or Software Engineering departments.
In reply to hokkyokusei:
A friend of mine who owns similar software business in Manchester now casts his net far and wide. He gives talks to students both at the top and bottom universities. He regularly speaks alongside the banks at the top 5 unis.he also targets the old polytechnics.
A friend of mine who owns similar software business in Manchester now casts his net far and wide. He gives talks to students both at the top and bottom universities. He regularly speaks alongside the banks at the top 5 unis.he also targets the old polytechnics.
In reply to neilh:
I know talks on campus can generate applications. Preferably the speaker is accompanied by the latest graduate recruit or a recent one from that university.
Always mention vacancies and recruitment process.
I know talks on campus can generate applications. Preferably the speaker is accompanied by the latest graduate recruit or a recent one from that university.
Always mention vacancies and recruitment process.
In reply to neilh:
I'm questioning what the UK state did to help. Almost nothing from 1980 until recently (which is very unusual in the western world) and now a bit of window dressing in the apprentiship funding (the numbers sound OK until you look at the funding details and compare to the cost of setting up a single standard sized technological institution). There are not that many engineering courses I can think of that really went well out of date or in such huge decline.. Mining comes to mind in vocational terms but any engineer can walk into numerous other well paid jobs and change sub-subject pretty easily.
I'm questioning what the UK state did to help. Almost nothing from 1980 until recently (which is very unusual in the western world) and now a bit of window dressing in the apprentiship funding (the numbers sound OK until you look at the funding details and compare to the cost of setting up a single standard sized technological institution). There are not that many engineering courses I can think of that really went well out of date or in such huge decline.. Mining comes to mind in vocational terms but any engineer can walk into numerous other well paid jobs and change sub-subject pretty easily.
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